Vajira sutta 2023

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auto
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Vajira sutta 2023

Post by auto »

Mundane path(8fold) accumulates khandhas. There happen rebirth. Insight is practiced after the rebirth.
In case of noble path, there is no rebirth and the insight is practiced together with the serenity.

In Vajira sutta Mara asks about the being, it is a question about whether there accumulates khandhas. Nun Vajira doesn't have craving, thus no khandhas accumulate, she is following noble path. No khandas are present in Vajira's immersion, therefore also no being because no craving occured towards khandas.

Its not about reality whether there is satta or not or if ultimately there is rebirth, but the difference of mundane and noble path. Mundane path has craving and satta. Whereas noble path practice is like what Sariputta did, jhana and vipassana together.
Joe.c
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by Joe.c »

Mara just come to temp her to drop from her samadhi. Dropping the samadhi, kamasava (especially) & others will arise. Possibility to comeback to human world if one was to die at that time.

This is why samadhi needs to be maintained 24/7. For the asavas to stop and free from dukkhas.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:15 pm Mara just come to temp her to drop from her samadhi. Dropping the samadhi, kamasava (especially) & others will arise. Possibility to comeback to human world if one was to die at that time.

This is why samadhi needs to be maintained 24/7. For the asavas to stop and free from dukkhas.
i think by dropping samadhi would mean giving up on a noble path and fall to a mundane path. Because samadhi is what holds the state where noble path condition is fully developed like the sutta mn149 says:
"When the noble eightfold path is developed, the following are fully developed: the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, and the seven awakening factors."
and the kamaasava is what mundane path has.
SarathW
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by SarathW »

SN 5.10 PTS: S i 134 CDB i 229
Vajira Sutta: Vajira
translated from the Pali by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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confusedlayman
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by confusedlayman »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:15 pm Mara just come to temp her to drop from her samadhi. Dropping the samadhi, kamasava (especially) & others will arise. Possibility to comeback to human world if one was to die at that time.

This is why samadhi needs to be maintained 24/7. For the asavas to stop and free from dukkhas.
Bullshit
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Joe.c
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:11 pm i think by dropping samadhi would mean giving up on a noble path and fall to a mundane path. Because samadhi is what holds the state where noble path condition is fully developed like the sutta mn149 says:
"When the noble eightfold path is developed, the following are fully developed: the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, and the seven awakening factors."
and the kamaasava is what mundane path has.
No, dropping in samadhi is because one hasn't perfected the samadhi with wisdom. Doesn't mean giving up noble path. There is no transgressions. It is at most stuck at some level.

It is just taking longer to complete the path. More Bhava in sensual realms.

Usually occurs between stream enterer and non returner. This is why once returner has weaken the link of greed and hatred, but not completely uprooted them. They will comeback, usually tempted by 5 senses (mara).

Wisdom maturity can take long time because one needs to keep looking inside until all is completely clean and pull the roots.

Hence samma sati/samadhi needs to be maintained all the time. At the very least one will be non returner if one is death at any time with samma samadhi.

Buddha always said practice jhana and don't regret it.

But of course after one has entered the stream (i.e has right view and perfected precepts) first.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:42 pm No, dropping in samadhi is because one hasn't perfected the samadhi with wisdom. Doesn't mean giving up noble path. There is no transgressions. It is at most stuck at some level.

It is just taking longer to complete the path. More Bhava in sensual realms.
The idea is that in case of mundane path the insight is gotten after rebirth(one point of a topic discussion). Samadhi is what develops the mind to get rebirth in jhana realm. So you return from jhana world back to sensual realm and have insight.
In case of noble path, there is no craving for sense organ derived pleasure and thus no need for rebirth. So in order to fall away from noble path is by letting Mara to talk oneself into taking rebirth.
Other point of discussion: it is samatha and vipassana together(noble) or samatha and vipassana practice separately(mundane).
Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:42 pm Usually occurs between stream enterer and non returner. This is why once returner has weaken the link of greed and hatred, but not completely uprooted them. They will comeback, usually tempted by 5 senses (mara).
yes
Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:42 pm Hence samma sati/samadhi needs to be maintained all the time. At the very least one will be non returner if one is death at any time with samma samadhi.
i doubt it is about maintaining samadhi all the time, because the noble path follower doesn't enter samadhi at all, but develops noble right view which will evolve into samadhi.
Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:42 pm But of course after one has entered the stream (i.e has right view and perfected precepts) first.
disciple doesn't have perfected precepts nor noble right view.
Ontheway
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by Ontheway »

Easily the most quoted Suttanta to explain sammuti and paramattha concepts.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps this is another word for Attha.

Attha = ignorance
Attha = suffering
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Joe.c
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:39 pm The idea is that in case of mundane path the insight is gotten after rebirth(one point of a topic discussion). Samadhi is what develops the mind to get rebirth in jhana realm. So you return from jhana world back to sensual realm and have insight.
In case of noble path, there is no craving for sense organ derived pleasure and thus no need for rebirth. So in order to fall away from noble path is by letting Mara to talk oneself into taking rebirth.
Other point of discussion: it is samatha and vipassana together(noble) or samatha and vipassana practice separately(mundane).
Looks like you are talking about ignoble path. There are just many ways, but developing non ariya jhana/samadhi, then try to get right view can be dangerous.

If a non ariya born in jhana realm, they can go to lower realms straight after that. So I suggest just follow N8FP, practice precepts and hear true dhamma. No need any significant samadhi yet.

Once, you get the fruit from precepts in this life. And got bored of the result of precepts (5 senses happiness), then one can abandon it easily. Then samma vayama/sati/samadhi can be easily developed. Smart one should be able to do it in 7 days.

But don't know your practice, so difficult to analyze.

The higher you train in N8FP, the higher you will be able to SEE/Know who is Good and who is Bad/fake. There are many fakes one out there.
you wrote: i doubt it is about maintaining samadhi all the time, because the noble path follower doesn't enter samadhi at all, but develops noble right view which will evolve into samadhi.
Yeah it is difficult to understand samma samadhi all the time. Buddha's ways is using Sati to developed samadhi. So as long as Sati is there, samadhi will always there. It goes hand in hand. Even when you use your senses, the mind is always very focus to watch. One will be super Aware about inside and outside world. Any movement will be seen right away.
you wrote: disciple doesn't have perfected precepts nor noble right view.
Just hear true dhamma, practice precepts especially the one that Buddha taught in SN 55.7 and MN 61. You will get the result now in this life, no need till death to realize the heavenly pleasure.

Ayu Vanno Sukkha Bala = longevity of life, beauty/handsome, happiness (rich, material, food, job) and strength (rarely got sick, power).
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:14 pm There are just many ways, but developing non ariya jhana/samadhi, then try to get right view can be dangerous.
One is born as an arya, not by deciding that you are one and following noble path now. I know there are suttas what talk about one is not brahman by birth, but that is a teaching about living a life which is equal to being a god or brahma while still being human.
I already answered to you that i have lot to learn.
auto
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:27 am Perhaps this is another word for Attha.

Attha = ignorance
Attha = suffering
here are the attha and anattha. Attha seem positive.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.171/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And what are bad principles with bad results?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, adhammo ca anattho ca?
Killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct; speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; covetousness, ill will, and wrong view.
Pāṇātipāto, adinnādānaṁ, kāmesumicchācāro, musāvādo, pisuṇā vācā, pharusā vācā, samphappalāpo, abhijjhā, byāpādo, micchādiṭṭhi—
These are called bad principles with bad results.
ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, adhammo ca anattho ca.

And what are good principles with good results?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, dhammo ca attho ca?
Avoiding killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct; avoiding speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; contentment, good will, and right view.
Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī, adinnādānā veramaṇī, kāmesumicchācārā veramaṇī, musāvādā veramaṇī, pisuṇāya vācāya veramaṇī, pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī, anabhijjhā, abyāpādo, sammādiṭṭhi—
These are called good principles with good results.
ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, dhammo ca attho ca.
jeffreestar
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Re: Vajira sutta 2023

Post by jeffreestar »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:52 am
SN 5.10 PTS: S i 134 CDB i 229
Vajira Sutta: Vajira
translated from the Pali by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html retro bowl
The mundane path is characterized by craving, the accumulation of khandhas, and rebirth, while the noble path leads to the cessation of craving, the temporary cessation of khandhas in samadhi, and the eventual liberation from rebirth and suffering.
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