Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by pegembara »

Alex123 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:04 pm
pegembara wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:16 am Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)
I like to translate Yoniso Manasikara as "Attention going to the "womb"/source of phenomena". What phenomena? Those mental things that lead to suffering and its cessation. All dukkha arise from the mind, and the mind can be changed to make dukkha cease.

If the reflection in the mirror is dirty, clean your face, not the mirror.

IMHO.
If the mirror is dirty, no matter how clean your face is, it will never look clean!
But without a face, there is no need for a mirror whose only function is to reflect.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)?
If you were struggling to find them before, I'm sure they've all gone to ground now that certain members want to silence them.

:popcorn:

Good luck.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pegembara
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by pegembara »

RobertoAnces wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:53 pm In MN 111 it is clear, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self, but there are even more clear suttas:
Regard the world as a fabricated dream. A reflection in the mirror of 'consciousness'.
[Mogharaja:]
Twice now, O Sakyan,
I've asked you,
but you, O One with Eyes,
haven't answered me.
"When asked the third time,
the divine seer answers":
so I have heard.
This world, the next world,
the Brahma world with its devas:
I don't know how they're viewed
by the glorious Gotama.
So to the one who has seen
to the far extreme,

I've come with a question:
One who regards the world in what way
isn't seen by Death's King?


[The Buddha:]
Always mindful, Mogharaja,
regard the world as
empty,
having removed any view
in terms of self.

This way
one is above and beyond death.
One who regards the world
in this way
isn't seen by Death's King.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Near Sāvatthī. “Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness.… Nose-consciousness.… Tongue-consciousness.… Body-consciousness.… Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.…

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN25_3.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
justindesilva
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by justindesilva »

pegembara wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:22 am
RobertoAnces wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:53 pm In MN 111 it is clear, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self, but there are even more clear suttas:
Regard the world as a fabricated dream. A reflection in the mirror of 'consciousness'.
[Mogharaja:]
Twice now, O Sakyan,
I've asked you,
but you, O One with Eyes,
haven't answered me.
"When asked the third time,
the divine seer answers":
so I have heard.
This world, the next world,
the Brahma world with its devas:
I don't know how they're viewed
by the glorious Gotama.
So to the one who has seen
to the far extreme,

I've come with a question:
One who regards the world in what way
isn't seen by Death's King?


[The Buddha:]
Always mindful, Mogharaja,
regard the world as
empty,
having removed any view
in terms of self.

This way
one is above and beyond death.
One who regards the world
in this way
isn't seen by Death's King.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Near Sāvatthī. “Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness.… Nose-consciousness.… Tongue-consciousness.… Body-consciousness.… Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.…

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN25_3.html
On this last post we can find phena sutta which indicates that rupa ultimately resolves
to sankara which says that the minds fabrication as a mirage ends as a tree without a solid core ending with an emptiness . The next best sutta to follow I think is abhinandana sutta which explains that taking delight in rupa, vedana sangna sankara vingnana is taking delight in suffering , and one who does not take such delight is released from suffering .
Yoniso manasikara plays an important role here to verify whether we are delghted in form, vedana, sangna sankara or vingnana and sabbassava sutta explains the way of handling emotions .
pegembara
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by pegembara »

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, one who seeks delight in form seeks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is not freed from suffering. One who seeks delight in feeling … in perception … in volitional formations … in consciousness seeks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is not freed from suffering.

“One who does not seek delight in form … in consciousness does not seek delight in suffering. One who does not seek delight in suffering, I say, is freed from suffering.”
One who does not seek escape from (virtual) reality is one who is not freed from dukkha.
In a way, all that is sensed and cognized is a form of virtual reality that the mind fabricates and is no different from the world created by the movie maker.



"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.

"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form... or feeling to be the self... the self as possessing feeling... feeling as in the self... self as in feeling... or perception to be the self... the self as possessing perception... perception as in the self... self as in perception... or fabrications to be the self... the self as possessing fabrications... fabrications as in the self... self as in fabrications... or consciousness to be the self... the self as possessing consciousness... consciousness as in the self... self as in consciousness.

"Now that assumption is a fabrication. What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by the feeling born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Alex123
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Alex123 »

pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:28 am
"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.
...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You have quoted one of my favourite suttas. The question that often bugs me, and I wish that somebody asked the Buddha and have it recorded in the suttas would be:

1)
a)Exactly how does on "knows and sees"?
b) Can one give an example of what it means to "know and see"?
c) What are the wrong ways to "know and see" it?

2)Is one supposed to literally think in line with "That [ignorance, etc] is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen."

3) Or does one, without thinking, adverts one's attention to presently arisen state trying to "silently" see it arise & cease? If this is done without deliberate attention, then 4) what is the difference between what normal person experiences vs what Buddhist meditator experiences?
Or how?


Thanks.
:namaste:
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mjaviem
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by mjaviem »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:06 pm ...
1)
a)Exactly how does on "knows and sees"?
b) Can one give an example of what it means to "know and see"?
c) What are the wrong ways to "know and see" it?
...
pajānāti passati? Isn't this more like being wise and understand?
Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:06 pm ...
2)Is one supposed to literally think in line with "That [ignorance, etc] is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen."
...
It's to understand "When this is, that is. When this is not, that is not"
Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:06 pm ...
3) Or does one, without thinking, adverts one's attention to presently arisen state trying to "silently" see it arise & cease?...
They don't "try" anything. They simply understood.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Alex123
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Alex123 »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:28 pm pajānāti passati? Isn't this more like being wise and understand?
Somewhat similar.

kathaṁ nu kho jānato kathaṁ passato anantarā āsavānaṁ khayo hotī”ti?
How should one know, how should one see, for the immediate destruction of the taints to occur?” - Bhikkhu Bodhi translation SN22.81

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:28 pm It's to understand "When this is, that is. When this is not, that is not"
...
They don't "try" anything. They simply understood.
If a person understands it, why isn't one fully Awakened then?

How exactly does one arrive at such understanding?
User13866
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by User13866 »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:14 am Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)?
If you were struggling to find them before, I'm sure they've all gone to ground now that certain members want to silence them.

:popcorn:

Good luck.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Some are quiet because this forum is full of people who have 'been killed in the dhamma' and it's not appropriate to teach these. Enjoy the popcorn.

OP can pm me and i'll explain it if you want
Last edited by User13866 on Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mjaviem
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by mjaviem »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:13 pm ...
kathaṁ nu kho jānato kathaṁ passato anantarā āsavānaṁ khayo hotī”ti?
How should one know, how should one see, for the immediate destruction of the taints to occur?” - Bhikkhu Bodhi translation SN22.81
...
passati seems to be seeing like when "concluding", "finding the answer", "understanding".
Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:13 pm ...
If a person understands it, why isn't one fully Awakened then?
...
Because they don't fully get it. They don't fully understood it.

SN 22.23 Bodhi wrote: ...
“And what, bhikkhus, is full understanding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called full understanding.”
Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:13 pm ...
How exactly does one arrive at such understanding?
There's no shortcut. It's the Noble Eightfold Path.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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robertk
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by robertk »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:13 pm

If a person understands it, why isn't one fully Awakened then?

How exactly does one arrive at such understanding?
There are three rounds: sacca ñāna, kicca ñāna. kata ñāna.
Without the first one, sacca nana, the pariyatti, seeping to the bone, how could deeper levels arise.
Does it still seem that there is someone, who somehow can do things, make things happen? If so one is still fully caught in self view, there is no understanding of conditions, thus the wrong path is inevitable.
Jack19990101
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Jack19990101 »

'Know and See' is the same term for 'knowledge & vision'.

The difference vs common perception, is there is no phassa occurring.
it is not conditioned by phassa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:41 pm 'Know and See' is the same term for 'knowledge & vision'.

The difference vs common perception, is there is no phassa occurring.
it is not conditioned by phassa.
If there is no contact then there is no knowledge/wisdom/understanding.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Jack19990101 »

Not really -

But there is hesitation to go further because it will inevitably end as the same discussion of 'awareness'. Scrolls of quoted text to be against it too.

Not that it is not interesting but I think if it is not helpful the first 3 times, it most likely won't be helpful this time neither, providing there is nothing left unsaid than before from this side.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:14 pm Not really -

But there is hesitation to go further because it will inevitably end as the same discussion of 'awareness'. Scrolls of quoted text to be against it too.

Not that it is not interesting but I think if it is not helpful the first 3 times, it most likely won't be helpful this time neither, providing there is nothing left unsaid than before from this side.
Rocks have no contact. They aren’t awakened. There is a realm of beings which have no contact. They aren’t awakened. You need consciousness and mental dhammas, which arise due to contact.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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