In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:27 pm
zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:17 pm Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
Thanks. All good points. Though, some of the suttas quoted above do make very clear recommendations against involvement.
Absolutely, but there are also quite a number of cases of the Buddha advising the laity about how best to conduct themselves in their lay lifestyles, and those cases are often the ones taken out of the broader context of liberation and used as justification for the argument that the Buddha encouraged social and political efforts as part of a Dhamma lifestyle. Very important that this distinction is emphasized. Yes, the Buddha was sure to say, if you want this societal situation/change, then such and such is the best way to go about it, but was clear that any such worldly accomplishment does not necessarily imply development in Dhamma on that individual level, which requires a whole other application of effort.

To say it another way, there is nothing unwholesome about engaging in efforts to promote social harmony, but one should not mistake those efforts as being automatically aligned with development in Dhamma. Success in Dhamma would require an additional, internal effort, which may not always align with what is required for external change. Change that deals in external circumstances, not internal views. That is the key difference, and seems to be why the Buddha did not hesitate to offer such advice to lay followers whose questions were not in direct reference to Dhamma development.
That's a valid point. But, the Buddha's instructions to the non enlightened are not necessarily equivalent to his actions. In other words, is a non enlightened person able to act the way the Buddha does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not get involved in stuff like that, until after they are enlightened, and thus can be sure they are getting involved only in ways that promote dhamma?

If the Buddha says "Don't discuss kings and politics, etc. etc." but he, himself discusses these things in a way that promotes dhamma, does that mean an unenlightened person should emulate him, and discuss these things the way he does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not discuss them?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by befriend »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:17 pm Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
Generosity helps improve the world. Are you saying generosity does not improve the world? It is the first instruction buddha gave to help people see the Dhamma. It helps eliminate greed and hate. And he also said don't be afraid of making merit. Fashion you life as a garland of skillfull actions.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
SarathW
Posts: 21237
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SarathW »

befriend wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:09 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:17 pm Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
Generosity helps improve the world. Are you saying generosity does not improve the world? It is the first instruction buddha gave to help people see the Dhamma. It helps eliminate greed and hate. And he also said don't be afraid of making merit. Fashion you life as a garland of skillfull actions.
No.
He is not saying this.
What he says is that you have to progress beyond Sila to Samadhi and Panna.
This is well explained in Ratavinitha Sutta.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

befriend wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:09 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:17 pm Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
Generosity helps improve the world. Are you saying generosity does not improve the world? It is the first instruction buddha gave to help people see the Dhamma. It helps eliminate greed and hate. And he also said don't be afraid of making merit. Fashion you life as a garland of skillfull actions.
I never said generosity doesn’t improve the world.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:37 am In the Dasadhamma Sutta's ten subjects for frequent recollection by those gone forth, I think that all the ones marked in bold ought to make a monk think twice about occupying his time with political and social activism. It's just not what faithful householders feed them for.
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon. What ten?

(1) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I have entered upon a classless condition.’

[Other translators have, “... the state of an outcaste” and “... a status different from my former one”]

(2) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My living is dependent upon others.’

(3) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My deportment should be different.’

(4) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I reproach myself in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(5) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do my wise fellow monks, having investigated, reproach me in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(6) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I must be parted and separated from everyone and everything dear and agreeable to me.’

(7) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

(8) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘How am I spending my nights and days?’

(9) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I take delight in empty huts?’

(10) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Have I attained any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, so that in my last days, when I am questioned by my fellow monks, I will not be embarrassed?’

“These, bhikkhus, are the ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon.”
Brilliantly said.

If former Dhamma Wheel topics such as Monastics Protesting Social Injustice are anything to go by, there are most certainly bhikkhus who would do well to reflect upon those ten things, rather than arrogantly assume their privileged position with regards to expounding the Dhamma should automatically carry over to the domain of "animal talk" (tiracchāna-kathā).

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:08 pm That's a valid point. But, the Buddha's instructions to the non enlightened are not necessarily equivalent to his actions. In other words, is a non enlightened person able to act the way the Buddha does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not get involved in stuff like that, until after they are enlightened, and thus can be sure they are getting involved only in ways that promote dhamma?

If the Buddha says "Don't discuss kings and politics, etc. etc." but he, himself discusses these things in a way that promotes dhamma, does that mean an unenlightened person should emulate him, and discuss these things the way he does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not discuss them?
It depends. The Buddha accepted all sorts of questions, and there was always value in his response. Those who are aiming for sotapatti should be cautious when emulating the Buddha when it comes to speaking/writing on any topic, let alone those that border on being related to the Dhamma. For the non-ariya it won’t always be clear how to address these worldly topics, so if development in Dhamma is their goal, they should probably avoid the topic. Now, if a Buddhist person is inclined to engage in worldly activities with enthusiasm and passion, then that person hasn’t established an inherent need to practice restraint in speech, which means that a whole handful of discourses may not even apply to them.

This is what is potentially confusing when it comes to the question of social and political involvement, and it really comes down to what the individual is attempting to gain from their involvement with Buddhism in the first place. I said this on another forum, that often people like to say that being politically/socially involved is “part of my Dhamma practice”, when the truth is often the other way around: that their practice is a part of their worldly lifestyle, an order with totally different implications. All in all, there is no point in passing judgement on anyone for their chosen involvement with Buddhism. What matters most is that the individual has a clear idea of what they want, and should avoid what is not beneficial; avoid what is not conducive to that end.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Post by sunnat »

What matters most is that the individual has a clear idea of what they want, and should avoid what is not beneficial; avoid what is not conducive to that end.

there is an ongoing process of developing clarity.

clarity does not come from the words of others but from one’s efforts.

No matter how misguided an action may be if carried out by a developed practitioner, for the uninstructed hearing the words of Dhamma and applying them as that individual understands, to the best of their efforts, the result are in the right direction towards clarity of what is wholesome.

A person instructing a good uninstructed one to turn away from the instincts to engage in social/political actions is not helping anyone. A person encouraging an uninstructed good person to engage in virtuous actions with mindfulness is always helpful. The newly instructed one now is turned in the direction that leads to the clarity where adopting the life of the mendicant is natural.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi SDC,
SDC wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:43 pm... often people like to say that being politically/socially involved is “part of my Dhamma practice”, when the truth is often the other way around: that their practice is a part of their worldly lifestyle, an order with totally different implications. All in all, there is no point in passing judgement on anyone for their chosen involvement with Buddhism. What matters most is that the individual has a clear idea of what they want, and should avoid what is not beneficial; avoid what is not conducive to that end.
This is an excellent point, and, as you say, it's not easy to tell. Without knowing someone well, it would be difficult to know.

A good fraction of the path:
right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
or
sīla, samādhi, pañña
involves interactions with others, even for monastics. It's an essential part of practice that whatever interactions we have (which invariably include some kind of "politics"), are in accord with the Dhamma. To me, it would be artificial to partition off some parts of speech, action, and livelihood and claim that the Dhamma doesn't have something to say about how we should approach them.

:heart:
Mike
stanl
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:02 am

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by stanl »

zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:12 am I've heard it said that engaged Buddhism, which gets into politics, is against the Buddha's teaching. Where is this in the suttas?
https://factsanddetails.com/world/cat55 ... -5690.html

interesting read,
in another sutta chakavatti-sihananda( unsure spelling) there are advise for 10 kingly duties/qualities for a ruler.

regards
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:43 pm
zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:08 pm That's a valid point. But, the Buddha's instructions to the non enlightened are not necessarily equivalent to his actions. In other words, is a non enlightened person able to act the way the Buddha does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not get involved in stuff like that, until after they are enlightened, and thus can be sure they are getting involved only in ways that promote dhamma?

If the Buddha says "Don't discuss kings and politics, etc. etc." but he, himself discusses these things in a way that promotes dhamma, does that mean an unenlightened person should emulate him, and discuss these things the way he does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not discuss them?
It depends. The Buddha accepted all sorts of questions, and there was always value in his response. Those who are aiming for sotapatti should be cautious when emulating the Buddha when it comes to speaking/writing on any topic, let alone those that border on being related to the Dhamma. For the non-ariya it won’t always be clear how to address these worldly topics, so if development in Dhamma is their goal, they should probably avoid the topic. Now, if a Buddhist person is inclined to engage in worldly activities with enthusiasm and passion, then that person hasn’t established an inherent need to practice restraint in speech, which means that a whole handful of discourses may not even apply to them.

This is what is potentially confusing when it comes to the question of social and political involvement, and it really comes down to what the individual is attempting to gain from their involvement with Buddhism in the first place. I said this on another forum, that often people like to say that being politically/socially involved is “part of my Dhamma practice”, when the truth is often the other way around: that their practice is a part of their worldly lifestyle, an order with totally different implications. All in all, there is no point in passing judgement on anyone for their chosen involvement with Buddhism. What matters most is that the individual has a clear idea of what they want, and should avoid what is not beneficial; avoid what is not conducive to that end.
Yes, but the issue is: how could a worldling possibly tell the difference? Only arahants could actually know if getting involved in social issues, and politics, etc. is being done as Dhamma practice, or is just utterly going against the Buddha's injunction to avoid exactly this stuff.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by wenjaforever »

In the nothingness kalpa, everyone is reborn in the 2nd jhana realm. Except those who are still in the higher planes of course. Because the 1st jhana is also destroyed by the fire.

With this logic, every being have been born in 4th jhana after the wind destruction. Except those who didn't exist prior a wind destruction.

But does it feel the same with being born there because of your own efforts? Since there are no lower beings compared to you, even if you're born as a Brahma you won't feel special or powerful. You're only there because lower realms didn't exist just yet.

And as soon as lower realms are starting to form you'd immediately fall. Because a dishonest person will always fall. But a honest person will always prevail.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by justindesilva »

zan wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:03 am
SDC wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:43 pm
zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:08 pm That's a valid point. But, the Buddha's instructions to the non enlightened are not necessarily equivalent to his actions. In other words, is a non enlightened person able to act the way the Buddha does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not get involved in stuff like that, until after they are enlightened, and thus can be sure they are getting involved only in ways that promote dhamma?

If the Buddha says "Don't discuss kings and politics, etc. etc." but he, himself discusses these things in a way that promotes dhamma, does that mean an unenlightened person should emulate him, and discuss these things the way he does? Or should they follow his instructions, and not discuss them?
It depends. The Buddha accepted all sorts of questions, and there was always value in his response. Those who are aiming for sotapatti should be cautious when emulating
Yes, but the issue is: how could a worldling possibly tell the difference? Only arahants could actually know if getting involved in social issues, and politics, etc. is being done as Dhamma practice, or is just utterly going against the Buddha's injunction to avoid exactly this stuff.
We who are lay followers follow sammuti satya and are not arya magga followers and hence get involved in politics. Any arahant cannot mingle with non aryan society
Budda never expected the lay followers to act on eightfold noble path in the same manner of arya sangha . What the lord budda expected by lay followers is explained seperately as in pparabhava sutta and another few while karaniya metta sutta and maha mangala sutta can be adopted by all to suit . Zen buddhism is mostly appropriate for the lay society at any time in the world looking at countries like china and Japan etc where practised .
Theravada is more suitable for arya sangha
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by justindesilva »

justindesilva wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:21 am
zan wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:03 am
SDC wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:43 pm

It depends. The Buddha accepted all sorts of questions, and there was always value in his response. Those who are aiming for sotapatti should be cautious when emulating
Yes, but the issue is: how could a worldling possibly tell the difference? Only arahants could actually know if getting involved in social issues, and politics, etc. is being done as Dhamma practice, or is just utterly going against the Buddha's injunction to avoid exactly this stuff.
We who are lay followers follow sammuti satya and are not arya magga followers and hence get involved in politics. Any arahant cannot mingle with non aryan society
Budda never expected the lay followers to act on eightfold noble path in the same manner of arya sangha . What the lord budda expected by lay followers is explained seperately as in pparabhava sutta and another few while karaniya metta sutta and maha mangala sutta can be adopted by all to suit . Zen buddhism is mostly appropriate for the lay society at any time in the world looking at countries like china and Japan etc where practised .
Theravada is more suitable for arya sangha
Edited by me
I happened to come across a sutta on politics for sangha called Attha hitha parahitha sutta where lord budda advised bikkus to better their own minds (attha ,hitha) on sila visuddhi pragna vimukti and darshana first while serving the follwers minds (,para hitha) which explains s the bikkus on how to do politics .
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:03 am Yes, but the issue is: how could a worldling possibly tell the difference? Only arahants could actually know if getting involved in social issues, and politics, etc. is being done as Dhamma practice, or is just utterly going against the Buddha's injunction to avoid exactly this stuff.
I don’t think there is any way it is done as Dhamma practice. What seems clear is that efforts in social harmony will align with efforts in generosity, virtue and restraint that are developed as the foundation for right view, but it is the overall intention that matters. If I’m being generous to make the world better, it isn’t implied that I’m also using that generosity as a way to oppose conceit, which is the true value towards the development of wisdom. Same with good behavior. If I’m doing it to improve my circumstances, I may not pick up on the reasons why killing, stealing, lying, cheating and taking intoxicants are opposed to right view.

Without applying discernment to the aggregate of virtue (sīlakkhandha), which has been heaped up through thorough effort, that behavior isn’t being used toward development in Dhamma, and any resulting social harmony is merely incidental. I don’t think it would be accurate to equate that with success in Dhamma.

So, I agree with you that the non-ariya may not be able to tell the difference, and the arahant would simply be responding accurately to the content of the question. Any additional emphasis placed on Dhamma by the arahant would be explicit, but it is doubtful that would happen if the person has only expressed interest in worldly matters. There are, of course, those cases in the suttas when the Buddha knew the listener was poised for sotapatti, and gave them far more than they asked, but that was probably not very common.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Kilaya Ciriello
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:50 pm

Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by Kilaya Ciriello »

Very helpful discussion, thank you to all the contributors so far.
I wonder if there are some more nuances concerning proper behavior for lay people who are genuinely interested in progressing in the Dhamma while remaining in the lay life.
I am specifically wondering if, assuming one dwells with a mind that clings and not speaking of one who dwells with a mind free from clinging, is it ever the case that an action that produces merit, kammically, would be a detriment or a hindrance towards progress in the Dhamma? I am trying to imagine an instance where the Buddha would have criticized a lay follower for some action that clearly generated merit.
If the answer is no, then there still remains the very difficult question of what actions in the lay life generate merit and which ones more than others? If we identify the practice of dwelling with a mind of compassion as generating merit does that merit dissipate if one fails to act in a compassionate way towards one's neighbor in need, assuming the neighbor is a layfollower as well or at least somewhat virtuous?
As long as one lives the lay life aren't there certain obligations, kammically, towards society that must be fulfilled or demerit is generated? One owes this body to the actions of one's parents and the sustenance of this body to one's community or society as a whole. The form of government in effect in one's area of residence demands certain things in response depending on one's social position, power, etc. If we refrain from fulfilling those responsibilities while still living the lay life can't we expect a kammic backlash in the future? And isn't the ripening of demerit considered a hindrance to one's progress on the path?

I'm thinking specifically of DN 12 Lohicca Sutta in regards to these questions.In it, Lohicca has refrained from doing his social duties towards others thinking "for what can one person do for another?" Because Lohicca is not generous in the fulfillment of his duties the Buddha said that through that attitude he was "a creator of obstacles for his subjects;" ie., those he was socially responsible for.
"And in one not sympathetic for their welfare, would his mind be established in good will for them, or in animosity? --In animosity, Master Gotama. "When the mind is established in animosity, is there wrong view or right view?--Wrong view, Master Gotama. "Now, for one with wrong view, Lohicca, I tell you, there is one of two destinations: either hell or the animal realm."
So maybe that is why the Buddha repeatedly said, it is not easy to live the lay-life polished and pure like a clam shell.
May these words not offend and find delight with the wise. May the wise correct any mistakes in my words or view.
Post Reply