A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Ontheway »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:29 pm Funny, I tried to recall what Buddha would say about one who say adhamma as dhamma. Here is what come up:
AN 10.37 wrote:“Ānanda, it’s:

1. when a mendicant explains what is not the teaching as the teaching,
2. and what is the teaching as not the teaching.
3. They explain what is not the training as the training,
4. and what is the training as not the training.
5. They explain what was not spoken and stated by the Realized One as spoken and stated by the Realized One,
6. and what was spoken and stated by the Realized One as not spoken and stated by the Realized One.
7. They explain what was not practiced by the Realized One as practiced by the Realized One,
8. and what was practiced by the Realized One as not practiced by the Realized One.
9. They explain what was not prescribed by the Realized One as prescribed by the Realized One,
10. and what was prescribed by the Realized One as not prescribed by the Realized One.

On these ten grounds they split off and go their own way. They perform legal acts autonomously and recite the monastic code autonomously. That is how schism in the Saṅgha is defined.”

“But sir, what does someone who has split a harmonious Saṅgha bring upon themselves?”

“They bring upon themselves evil that lasts for an eon.”

“But sir, what is the evil that lasts for an eon?”

“They burn in hell for an eon, Ānanda.
and on DN 33 to recite in harmoniously:
DN 33 wrote:But this teaching is well explained and well propounded to us by the Blessed One, emancipating, leading to peace, proclaimed by someone who is a fully awakened Buddha.

You should all recite this in concert, without disputing, so that this spiritual path may last for a long time.

That would be for the welfare and happiness of the people, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans.

And what is that teaching?

1. Ones ...
Funny things is someone above has a great respect to Sakka DevaRaja and Vessavaṇa. I'm wondering what they think about Abhidhamma vs Sutta.
Tell that to those misguided new schools of Buddhism. :thinking:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
Mumfie
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:43 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:20 pm Problem is Buddha never said about akarawathi saddha. There is only 1 saddha in Buddha's teaching.
I believe Justin is Sinhalese and is spelling the word according to his local pronunciation. The term is ākāravatī saddhā. It can be found in the Vīmaṃsaka and Apaṇṇaka suttas, MN47 and MN60.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by justindesilva »

Mumfie wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:23 am
Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:20 pm Problem is Buddha never said about akarawathi saddha. There is only 1 saddha in Buddha's teaching.
I believe Justin is Sinhalese and is spelling the word according to his local pronunciation. The term is ākāravatī saddhā. It can be found in the Vīmaṃsaka and Apaṇṇaka suttas, MN47 and MN60.
My greetings to friend Mumfie
You are correct while it is difficult to be with phoenetics in english on phone
Thank you for the verification with references
May the blessings of holy triple gem be with you
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

Mumfie wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:23 am
Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:20 pm Problem is Buddha never said about akarawathi saddha. There is only 1 saddha in Buddha's teaching.
I believe Justin is Sinhalese and is spelling the word according to his local pronunciation. The term is ākāravatī saddhā. It can be found in the Vīmaṃsaka and Apaṇṇaka suttas, MN47 and MN60.
Ok. Thanks for the Sutta.

I apologize then, problem people use the term that can't be found in the Sutta most of the time.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:33 am My greetings to friend Mumfie
You are correct while it is difficult to be with phoenetics in english on phone
Thank you for the verification with references
May the blessings of holy triple gem be with you
Btw, I Apologize for my previous reply.

Btw, Well triple gems can't do anything if you don't follow/practice the step yourself. 😁
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by justindesilva »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:24 am
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:33 am My greetings to friend Mumfie
You are correct while it is difficult to be with phoenetics in english on phone
Thank you for the verification with references
May the blessings of holy triple gem be with you
Btw, I Apologize for my previous reply.

Btw, Well triple gems can't do anything if you don't follow/practice the step yourself. 😁
Please note that I am a follower of budda damma sangha and in the good books of village temple I do meditation daily with metta bhavana I folllow anattalakkhna sutta with phena sutta and abhinsndana sutta .
What more to be an good follower of damma
I just wanted to expose my self and not vexed with you We all are trying to shorten our samsara of course and here I end my discussion .
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Ontheway »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:40 am
Joe.c wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:24 am
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:33 am My greetings to friend Mumfie
You are correct while it is difficult to be with phoenetics in english on phone
Thank you for the verification with references
May the blessings of holy triple gem be with you
Btw, I Apologize for my previous reply.

Btw, Well triple gems can't do anything if you don't follow/practice the step yourself. 😁
Please note that I am a follower of budda damma sangha and in the good books of village temple I do meditation daily with metta bhavana I folllow anattalakkhna sutta with phena sutta and abhinsndana sutta .
What more to be an good follower of damma
I just wanted to expose my self and not vexed with you We all are trying to shorten our samsara of course and here I end my discussion .
Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu
Absolutely agreed with your statement above. Practice Dhamma is definitely wholesome and contribute to wholesomeness.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by frank k »

Ok Mumfie, where does this lie in the heresy scale?
Derivatives and commentaries of Buddha's original Dhamma (coming hundreds of years after the Buddha) which contain contradictions and incoherence?
Obviously the composers were sincere and didn't intend to contradict the Buddha, but they lie to themselves and insist not only are there no contradictions, but you can't understand the Buddha's original teachings without using their corrupt dictionary redefining many important terms.
The unorthodox call themselves the orthodox, and all others they call heretics.
Ontheway wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:31 am
robertk wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:51 am You could also add this:
The Expositor p.37
He who prohibits (the teaching of) Abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the Conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher’s knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one’ of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be ex- communicated, or admonished,’ Or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of food.
This is a great point, robertk. Personally I have seen some monks teaching sermons yet without the knowledge of Abhidhamma, having difficulty in differentiating sammuti and paramattha.... And each of them contradicting one another with no consensus at all, and each of them claimed they knew better than the Theras in the past who relied on Pali Tipitaka and Atthakatha, by saying "....refering to the Nikayas" yet their understanding of the origin of Nikayas is so distorted. Another famous Malaysian Chinese monk named Dhammavuddho, while rejecting Abhidhamma & commentaries, introduced "soul" into Buddha's teachings. Some other even explained by adhering to modern scientific terms and gave no insight at all, mere jargons, and it even push even further away to the point of total confusion, though keep repeating the phrase "we follow Suttas". All these misguided people, can only verbally attack the great Theras in the past, not knowing that those Theras were actually Arahants (such as Ven. Moggaliputta Tissa Thera). As to why some layfollowers despise the great Theras in the past, I can only guess it is their jealousy, pride and foolishness. Much demerits has been accumulated by them. They can say whatever they want, as they preaching there is kammavipaka, yet the way they act is totally contradicting to what they say. Let see how they can endure the Vipakas.

What Bhaddantacariya Buddhaghosa Thera said is correct, those without Abhidhamma knowledge, that is, the ability to decipher the concepts of Sabhava, as well as both Sammuti and Paramattha, are not capable to give full exposition and analysis of the Dhamma, and hence couldn't differentiate between Dhamma and Adhamma in more detail ways, couldn't explain the meaning of Sassataditthi and Ucchedaditthi and they different from Anattavada of Lord Buddha in details. For the Lord Buddha, the Master is known as "Vibhajjavadi", the Analyser. And Abhidhamma is the best evidence to that name.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
Mumfie
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:43 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

frank k wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:10 am Ok Mumfie, where does this lie in the heresy scale?
Where does what lie on the heresy scale? That is, which part of your post is the heresy on whose gravity you wish me to venture an opinion?
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Mumfie wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 am
~
Some Theravada 'heresy' may be true and more aligned with Nikaya Buddhism.
I.e the existence of an intermediate state between rebirth which is mentioned in the suttas but denied by mainstream Theravada.

Sometimes it's good to be a bit heretical.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:40 am Please note that I am a follower of budda damma sangha and in the good books of village temple I do meditation daily with metta bhavana I folllow anattalakkhna sutta with phena sutta and abhinsndana sutta .
What more to be an good follower of damma
I just wanted to expose my self and not vexed with you We all are trying to shorten our samsara of course and here I end my discussion .
It doesn't matter how long you are a good/bad follower. Good or bad is not from just saying, it is from doing it with body, speech and mind.

As long as one still has not understood, the lower realm is still open. Doesn't matter whether there is any good book or bad book in this world.

Also, It is not about how long one can sit, but the mind is traveling far away. It is more about whether you have understood or not.

Next time, please provide Sutta before quoting anyone if you want to add something PLEASE.

I also don't care how long you want to be in samsara, it is your own problem. 😅
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by justindesilva »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:49 am
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:40 am Please note that I am a follower of budda damma sangha and in the good books of village temple I do meditation daily with metta bhavana I folllow anattalakkhna sutta with phena sutta and abhinsndana sutta .
What more to be an good follower of damma
I just wanted to expose my self and not vexed with you We all are trying to shorten our samsara of course and here I end my discussion .
It doesn't matter how long you are a good/bad follower. Good or bad is not from just saying, it is from doing it with body, speech and mind.

As long as one still has not understood, the lower realm is still open. Doesn't matter whether there is any good book or bad book in this world.

Also, It is not about how long one can sit, but the mind is traveling far away. It is more about whether you have understood or not.

Next time, please provide Sutta before quoting anyone if you want to add something PLEASE.

I also don't care how long you want to be in samsara, it is your own problem. 😅
This time may I mention Maha Mangala sutta which states that the highest blessing one can have is not to be fluttered by any of eight worldly conditions which are labo alabo ayaso yasoca ninda prasansa sukanca dukkan
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

justindesilva wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:45 am This time may I mention Maha Mangala sutta which states that the highest blessing one can have is not to be fluttered by any of eight worldly conditions which are labo alabo ayaso yasoca ninda prasansa sukanca dukkan
It doesn’t matter if you bring any sutta, but never understand the single meaning and put into the practice.

One can just be a parrot, but never understand the meaning.

Anyway enough said. Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by frank k »

There's a number of things referenced in my post that I believe are heresy worthy.

On a different topic, here's a great bit from Emo Phillips on religion.
If the video player not showing up yet,
It's a 3Mb download, 1.5 min viewing pleasure (also thought provocative, insightful, hilarious).


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NoRPo1 ... share_link

Mumfie wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:48 am
frank k wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:10 am Ok Mumfie, where does this lie in the heresy scale?
Where does what lie on the heresy scale? That is, which part of your post is the heresy on whose gravity you wish me to venture an opinion?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Milinda
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:26 pm

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Milinda »

I think this could be a good example of "heresy".

viewtopic.php?t=44624
Post Reply