SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

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nirodh27
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SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi everyone,

I hope your 2023 started in a good way and you are happy and healthy.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to partecipate to the forum right now and I've still to respond in an interesting topic to RobertK to which I apologize.

Still, since I use Chatgpt for work in those days and who knows if it will remain free in the near future, I try to take some time to use it to translate the SA, EA and MA suttas that doesn't have translations available. The results seems far superior to anything I've seen before including DeepL and it actually makes accessible those suttas. I think I will use it to translate many of the parallels I've renounced to read because of the impossibility to get good translations and I will share the more interesting ones. I suggest also to others to use it while it is possible, it will soon be behind a paywall I think. It is also possible to ask after the translation why he made that particular choice and if alternatives are possible.

Still, the need for experts will always :quote: be needed to evaluate results when the texts goes into difficult directions, I would like to ask what chinese experts here thinks of the translation of SA302. One major difference here seems that the "simple" formula of dependant origination is used instead of the 12-links of DO and "a combination of ignorance and actions" accumulates the suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sa302/lzh/taisho
Once the Buddha was dwelling in the city of Rajagriha, on Mount Grdhrakuta.
At that time, in the morning, the World-Honored One put on his robes and took his bowl, and left Mount Grdhrakuta to beg for food in the city of Rajagriha.
At that time, Kaundinya, the chief of the Ajivikas, was engaged in small affairs, and left the city of Rajagriha to go to Mount Grdhrakuta. He saw the World-Honored One in the distance and went to him. Having arrived, he went to the Buddha, and said to the Buddha, "Gautama, I have something I wish to ask. Do you have leisure to answer me?"
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "This is not the right time. I am now going into the city to beg for food. I will return and answer you at that time."
For the second time, it was the same. For the third time, Kaundinya asked, "Gautama, why do you make it so difficult for me? Gautama, what is the cause of this? I have something I wish to ask and you should explain it to me."
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "Ask whatever you wish."
Kaundinya asked the Buddha, "Is suffering self-made?"
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "Suffering that is self-made, this is (without memory)."
Kaundinya asked again, "Is suffering other-made?"
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "Suffering that is other-made, this is also (without memory)."
Kaundinya asked again, "Is suffering both self-made and other-made?"
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "Suffering that is both self-made and other-made, this is also (without memory)."
Kaundinya asked again, Is suffering without self or other, without cause?"
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "Suffering that is without self or other, without cause, this is also (without memory)."
Kaundinya asked again, "Is this suffering not existent?"
The Buddha told Kaundinya, "This suffering is not non-existent, but it does exist."
Kaundinya said to the Buddha, "Well said, Gautama! You speak of existing suffering, please teach the Dharma and make me understand suffering and see suffering."

The Buddha told Kaundinya, "If suffering is accepted as one's own suffering, I should say that suffering is self-made. If suffering is accepted as someone else's suffering, it is other-made. If suffering is accepted as both one's own and someone else's, it is both self-made and other-made. I will not say this kind of suffering is self-made or other-made. If suffering arises without a cause, neither self-made nor other-made, I will also not say that. Going beyond these distinctions, I speak of the middle way, the way taught by the Tathagata. This has a cause, that has a cause, this arises, that arises. This is due to the combination of ignorance and action, and eventually the pure great suffering gathers. When ignorance is destroyed, action is destroyed, and eventually the pure great suffering is destroyed."

The Buddha spoke this sutra, Kaundinya was released from the dust and filth, and attained the pure eye of the Dharma.

At that time, Kaundinya saw the Dharma, attained the Dharma, knew the Dharma, and entered the Dharma. He overcame all doubts and was not dependent on anyone else's understanding or liberation. In the correct Dharma and the Vinaya, he attained fearlessness. He joined his palms and said to the Buddha, "World-Honored One! I have been liberated now. From this day on, I take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, I will live out my life as an upasaka, and you should recognize me."
When Kaundinya heard the Buddha's teaching, he he rejoiced and made offerings before departing.
Another good thing is that also the viet translation now is totally available, which usually is the only one available. Unfortunately, the text of SA302 seems incomplete in viet.
At one time, the Buddha was residing at Mount Ky-xà-quật, in the city of King's Palace. At that time, in the morning, the Buddha put on his robes, took his bowl, and left Mount Ky-xà-quật, entering the city of King's Palace to beg for food. At that time, A-chi-la Ca-diếp was going out of the city of King's Palace, heading towards Mount Ky-xà-quật, and from far away saw the Buddha, approached the Buddha, and said:
"Gautama, I have something I want to ask you, do you have any leisure to answer me or not?"
The Buddha said to Ca-diếp:
"This is not the time to talk about it, I'm now going into the city to beg for food, when I come back then it will be the time, I will speak to you then."
The Buddha said it in this way a second time.
Ca-diếp asked again a third time.
"Gautama, why are you making it hard for me? Why is there a difference? I have something I want to ask, please explain it to me."
The Buddha said to A-chi-la Ca-diếp:
"As you wish, ask me."
A-chi-la Ca-diếp said to the Buddha:
"Gautama, suffering, sorrow, is it caued by oneself or not?"
The Buddha said:
"Speaking of suffering caused by oneself, I don't assert this."
Ca-diếp asked again:
"Gautama, then is suffering caused by others or not?"
This is instead T499:
迦葉復問:「云何瞿曇,苦他作耶?」

佛告迦葉: 「苦他作者,此亦無記。」

迦葉復問:「苦自他作 耶?」

佛告迦葉:「苦自他作,此亦無記。」

迦葉復 問:「云何瞿曇,苦非自非他無因作耶?」

佛告 迦葉:「苦非自非他無因作者,此亦無記。」

迦 葉復問:「瞿曇!所問苦自作耶?答言無記。他 作耶?自他作耶?非自非他無因作耶?答言無 記。今無此苦耶?」

佛告迦葉:「非無此苦,然有 此苦。」

迦葉白佛言:「善哉瞿曇!說有此苦,為 我說法,令我知苦見苦。」

佛告迦葉:「若受即 自受者,我應說苦自作;若他受他即受者,是 則他作;若受自受受他受復與苦者,如是者 自他作,我亦不說;若不因自他無因而生苦 者,我亦不說。離此諸邊,說其中道。如來說 法,此有故彼有,此起故彼起,謂緣無明行 乃至純大苦聚集;無明滅則行滅,乃至純大 苦聚滅。」

佛說此經已,阿支羅迦葉遠塵離 垢,得法眼淨。

時阿支羅迦葉,見法得法,知 法入法,度諸狐疑,不由他知,不因他度,於 正法律,心得無畏,合掌白佛言:「世尊!我今 已度,我從今日,歸依佛、歸依法、歸依僧,盡 形壽作優婆塞,證知我。」

阿支羅迦葉聞佛 所說,歡喜隨喜,作禮而去。

時阿支羅迦葉 辭世尊去,不久為護犢牸牛所觸殺,於命終 時,諸根清淨,顏色鮮白。
Kāśyapa asked again: "Why is suffering, Gautama? Where does it come from?"

The Buddha replied to Kāśyapa: "That which is suffering, there is no such thing as 'self' or 'other' that causes it."

Kāśyapa asked again: "Is suffering caused by the self?"

The Buddha replied to Kāśyapa: "That which is suffering, there is no such thing as 'self' or 'other' that causes it."

Kāśyapa asked again: "If it's not caused by the self or other, Gautama, where does suffering come from?"

The Buddha replied to Kāśyapa: "That which is suffering, there is no such thing as 'self' or 'other' that causes it."

Kāśyapa asked again: "Gautama, is there really such a thing as suffering or not?"

The Buddha replied to Kāśyapa: "There is such a thing as suffering, but there is no such thing as 'self' or 'other' that causes it."

Kāśyapa said to the Buddha: "Well said, Gautama! You have taught that suffering exists, and you have explained it to me so that I may understand suffering."

The Buddha replied to Kāśyapa: "If one suffers because of oneself, I would say it is caused by oneself. If one suffers because of others, I would say it is caused by others. If one suffers because of both oneself and others, I wouldn't say it's caused by oneself or others. And if one suffers for no reason at all, I wouldn't say it's caused by oneself or others.
But all these examples I have given you are not the correct explanation of the truth, I will teach you the middle way. The Buddha's teaching is this: this arises, that arises. This is the cause, that is the cause. Ignorance and action lead to the accumulation of suffering, and when ignorance is extinguished, action is extinguished, and suffering is also extinguished."

When the Buddha had spoken this sutra, Kāśyapa, who was far away from dust and dirt, attained the eye of the Dharma.

At that time, Kāśyapa, having seen the Dharma, knew the Dharma, entered the Dharma, and liberated from all doubts, without relying on anyone else, and not depending on anyone else, he attained fearlessness in the true law and he joined his hands and said to the Buddha: "Great Sage, I am now saved. From now on, I take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, until the end of my life"
So, chinese experts, how good the translations are here in your opinion and you will do some experiments with the AI in the future about the Dhamma?
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nirodh27
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by nirodh27 »

I will add that it is also possible to ask explanations in depth about those choices. For example I've asked about the phrase "attained the eye of the Dhamma"
The Chinese characters that represent the phrase "attained the eye of the Dharma" is "得法眼淨" (dé fǎ yǎn jìng)
得 (dé) means "to attain, to obtain"
法 (fǎ) means "Dharma, law"
眼 (yǎn) means "eye"
淨 (jìng) means "pure, clear"
So together it forms "to attain the pure and clear eye of the Dharma"
or I've also asked about why he used "accumulation" instead of "arising"
Both "accumulation" and "arising" can be used to describe the concept of dukkha in Buddhism. "Accumulation" refers to the gradual buildup or piling up of conditions that lead to the experience of suffering. "Arising" refers to the emergence or coming into being of suffering.

"Accumulation" emphasizes the idea that dukkha is not something that happens suddenly or independently, but rather builds up over time through the accumulation of various conditions.
"Arising" emphasizes the idea that suffering is not a permanent or inherent part of existence, but rather arises in response to certain conditions.

Both "accumulation" and "arising" convey the idea that dukkha is a process rather than a fixed state, and are both used in Buddhist texts. It's a matter of preference on which one to use, both are accurate to convey the idea.
The Chinese characters for "accumulation" is "累積" (léi jī)
累 (léi) means "to accumulate, to gather"
積 (jī) means "to accumulate, to pile up"
So together the phrase "累積" means "accumulation, to gather and pile up"
It could be used to represent the idea of accumulation of something like good deeds, or in the case of Buddhism, the accumulation of conditions leading to dukkha.
The Chinese characters "累積" (léi jī) are commonly translated as "accumulation" or "cumulation" , it is primarily used to convey the meaning of "accumulation of something" this characters can also mean "to origin" or "to arise" depending on the context and surrounding characters.
"累積" can express the idea of something that arise from a gradual process, as an accumulation of different factors. In the context of Buddhism, it can be used to convey the idea of the arising of dukkha from the accumulation of certain conditions.
It's important to consider the context when translating Chinese characters.
Maybe wrong, but mind-blowing nonethless :jumping:
Pulsar
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by Pulsar »

What exactly is ChatGPT translator. I tried to access it, and could not. Do I need to download an app?
As for the reference to Paticca Samuppada there, my understanding is that originally that is how it was presented, very simply.
Later it was standardized by scholars. I prefer the original. The simple version
can also be found in Sn 4.11, a very inspiring presentation of how suffering, the pleasant and the unpleasant originate. It is a highly non-scholarly, presentation, down to earth, emerging from the heart of the Buddha.
Its been my inspiration since the first time I heard it.
nirodh27 wrote
One major difference here seems that the "simple" formula of dependant origination is used instead of the 12-links of DO and "a combination of ignorance and actions" accumulates the suffering.
My comment addresses the simplicity of DO in the sutta you selected. I will comment about
translation issues when I find the time.
With love :candle:
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mikenz66
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by mikenz66 »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:39 pm What exactly is ChatGPT translator. I tried to access it, and could not. Do I need to download an app?
You need to register here:
https://chat.openai.com/
then you just talk to it. It's under some load, so sometimes will tell you to come back later...
What is your opinion of dhammawheel.com?

I am an AI and do not have the ability to have opinions or preferences. However, I can provide information about dhammawheel.com. It is a website that provides information and resources on Buddhism, including teachings, forums, and a library of texts.
“­Karaṇīya­matthaku­s­ale­na­,
Yanta santaṁ padaṁ abhisamecca;

"By doing what should be done with a disciplined mind, one attains peace, the supreme goal."
:heart:
Mike
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by Pulsar »

Mike wrote
You need to register here:
https://chat.openai.com/
then you just talk to it.
Thanks Mike, it is more complicated than DeepL or Google or Yandex translation sites. With those I just copy and paste the Chinese sutta, and right away the translation appears. So far I have been satisfied with the translations. This site requires e-mail address, password. I have a hard time remembering a zillion passwords.
When you said 'then you just talk to it' what did you mean? I was intending to translate suttas using the site, as OP suggested.
Regards :candle:
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mikenz66
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by mikenz66 »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:59 am Mike wrote
You need to register here:
https://chat.openai.com/
then you just talk to it.
Thanks Mike, it is more complicated than DeepL or Google or Yandex translation sites. With those I just copy and paste the Chinese sutta, and right away the translation appears. So far I have been satisfied with the translations. This site requires e-mail address, password. I have a hard time remembering a zillion passwords.
When you said 'then you just talk to it' what did you mean? I was intending to translate suttas using the site, as OP suggested.
Regards :candle:
I gave you an example in my last post, where it translated the start of the Dhammapada, so it's not hard to use, but you need to register.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by Pulsar »

Mike wrote
I gave you an example in my last post, where it translated the start of the Dhammapada, so it's not hard to use, but you need to register.
I see, thanks for the explanation. I just hope after the initial registration, one is not required to enter password etc, each time the site is used, subsequently. Appreciate your help.
With love :candle:
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confusedlayman
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by confusedlayman »

Is it possible to translate untranslated text to english? And make new complilation to spread it to world in pdf?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Pulsar
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by Pulsar »

confusedlayman wrote
Is it possible to translate untranslated text to english? And make new complilation to spread it to world in pdf?
Once Dr. Richard Gombrich (a layman) suggested to Dr. Walpola Rahula that the Pali canon should be rewritten. Dr. Walpola Rahula (a monastic and a scholar) rejected the idea.
Why do you think Dr. Gombrich suggested a "Rewrite of the Pali canon"? I do not want to speculate on the second, too much politics, better to quietly slither away.
With love :candle:
cdpatton
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by cdpatton »

The first hint that it doesn't really know what it's doing is when it mistakes Kasyapa for Kaundinya. The Chinese names shouldn't be that confusing, but it's an AI, it has no idea what it's doing.

It does fairly well with the intro, which is probably because it's very standard and has been rendered into English many times in the public space. When it comes to the Q&A between Kasyapa and the Buddha, it starts wobbling. It doesn't know what 無記 means, which is the Chinese word for "unknown" or "indeterminate" (P. avyākata).

In that Q&A, it doesn't render the Chinese grammar very well. It sounds like Kasyapa is asking about different types of suffering, but he's asking about different hypothetical origins of suffering. Then when it reaches the point where Kasyapa asks, "How can it be created without cause? Gautama, I asked, 'Is suffering self-made?' and you answered, 'It's indeterminate.' ..." etc. the AI just gives up and starts spitting out stuff about suffering not existing.

The paragraph you've bolded isn't rendered very well, either. The Buddha starts by saying, "If it's a feeling felt by oneself, the I would say that suffering is self-made. If it's a feeling felt by another, then it's other-made." This happens because the AI doesn't know how to disambiguate the various ways 受 is used in SA. A human like myself can tell fairly quickly what it means, but then I've been reading this text for a couple years on and off. AI doesn't read or understand anything. It's a piece of software that puts existing text into a blender and spits out stuff humans think sounds good.
Supposing is good, but finding out is better.
- Mark Twain
Pulsar
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by Pulsar »

cdpatton wrote
AI doesn't read or understand anything. It's a piece of software that puts existing text into a blender and spits out stuff humans think sounds good.
So much for the efficacy of ChatGPT translator. Thanks for visiting. I've enjoyed reading your comments. Wish you would visit more often.
With love :candle:
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nirodh27
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Re: SA302 and the power of ChatGPT translator

Post by nirodh27 »

cdpatton wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:06 pm The first hint that it doesn't really know what it's doing is when it mistakes Kasyapa for Kaundinya. The Chinese names shouldn't be that confusing, but it's an AI, it has no idea what it's doing.

It does fairly well with the intro, which is probably because it's very standard and has been rendered into English many times in the public space. When it comes to the Q&A between Kasyapa and the Buddha, it starts wobbling. It doesn't know what 無記 means, which is the Chinese word for "unknown" or "indeterminate" (P. avyākata).

In that Q&A, it doesn't render the Chinese grammar very well. It sounds like Kasyapa is asking about different types of suffering, but he's asking about different hypothetical origins of suffering. Then when it reaches the point where Kasyapa asks, "How can it be created without cause? Gautama, I asked, 'Is suffering self-made?' and you answered, 'It's indeterminate.' ..." etc. the AI just gives up and starts spitting out stuff about suffering not existing.

The paragraph you've bolded isn't rendered very well, either. The Buddha starts by saying, "If it's a feeling felt by oneself, the I would say that suffering is self-made. If it's a feeling felt by another, then it's other-made." This happens because the AI doesn't know how to disambiguate the various ways 受 is used in SA. A human like myself can tell fairly quickly what it means, but then I've been reading this text for a couple years on and off. AI doesn't read or understand anything. It's a piece of software that puts existing text into a blender and spits out stuff humans think sounds good.
Hi Cdpatton,

thank you for your contribution!

The AI agrees btw :rofl: :
As an AI language model, I do not have personal opinions or emotions. However, I acknowledge that my training data and algorithms are not perfect and may lead to inaccuracies or mistakes in my translations. It is always recommended to have human translators review and verify AI generated translations for accuracy and cultural nuances.
The AI is an imperfect tool, but actually he gave me access to suttas for example in understanding the differences between sutras (For example in the suttas about the four noble truths, which parts are there, which are not there, which are shared, which are not).

Actually, AI could be trained by all your writings and we would have a more "cdpatton" translation. Nothing like real understanding, but it could make your work a lot easier and faster. In my job he actually speeded up many processes, even if he makes mistakes and he isn't consistent on his proposals, which is good because in a sense even us are not consistent without years of training in one way of thinking while the AI is not "allowed" to have preferences. You can ask the AI to change his behaviour btw so to have "better" and "better" result based on your willings, for example to speed-up your work of translation.

About the bolded passage of SA302:

「離此諸邊,說其中道,如來說法,此有故彼有,此起故彼起,謂緣無明行,乃至純大苦聚集,無明滅則行滅,乃至純大苦聚滅。」

Do you think that the translation here is correct?

Also in SA300, the AI seems to totally miss the "and so on.."
“Teaching the essence, teaching the dharma, I avoid these two extremes. Keeping to the Middle Way, I teach the dharma, namely: When this is, that is; this arising, that arises. Conditioned by ignorance, activities arise, and so on …, and thus is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. Ignorance ceasing, activities ceases, and so on …, and thus is the ceasing of this whole mass of suffering.”
that instead is put into the translation of Choong Mun-Keat. Is it there?
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