Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:31 am But it's not regular thinking is it?

It's Dhammic thinking as in Right Thought... this misunderstanding of the use of vitakka vicara is enough to lead someone down the wrong path.

People seem unwilling to use a human beings most important attribute... a thinking mind... thoughts are gradually diminished and abandoned, but one has to achieve second jhana before that comes in to play.
Some word definitions:
dhamma as a principle,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.172/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Killing living creatures is a bad principle.
Pāṇātipāto, āvuso, adhammo;
Not killing living creatures is a good principle.
pāṇātipātā veramaṇī dhammo;
kusala, akusala dhamma are a result of the principle,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.172/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And the many bad, unskillful qualities produced by killing living creatures are bad results.
ye ca pāṇātipātapaccayā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavanti, ayaṁ anattho;
And the many skillful qualities fully developed because of not killing living creatures are good results.
pāṇātipātā veramaṇipaccayā ca aneke kusalā dhammā bhāvanāpāripūriṁ gacchanti, ayaṁ attho.
if to look at the mn20 then the akusala vitakka is a bad result based on a foundation(nimitta) what gives rise to that kind of result
https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Take a mendicant who is focusing on some foundation of meditation that gives rise to bad, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion. That mendicant should focus on some other foundation of meditation connected with the skillful.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno yaṁ nimittaṁ āgamma yaṁ nimittaṁ manasikaroto uppajjanti pāpakā akusalā vitakkā chandūpasaṁhitāpi dosūpasaṁhitāpi mohūpasaṁhitāpi, tena, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā tamhā nimittā aññaṁ nimittaṁ manasi kātabbaṁ kusalūpasaṁhitaṁ.
In sum: A thought(vitakka) is a result from focusing on a principle(dhamma).

If there is the greed to tell a lie(dhamma) then by focusing on not lying will produce kusala vitakka. I gather dhamma is something mental and use that as a foundation for producing thoughts.
So yes, i doubt it is ordinary thinking what you can mentally hear doing it. Because in case of dhamma the cetana is functioning as greed, hatred, delusion, there's no need for you to think. Or it may be if understood properly as a result of some past action..maybe
BrokenBones
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by BrokenBones »

Forgot something...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

These seven factors are your tools/reference points/guide.
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frank k
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by frank k »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:28 am Forgot something...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

These seven factors are your tools/reference points/guide.
SN 46.14 is a terrible sutta. The 7 awakening are not magic words you recite to cure fatal illness.

The suttas you really want to master on the topic, are SN 46.2 and SN 46.3 which show the causal relationship and development sequence of jhana.
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html

Also among the first 10 suttas from the satipatthana samyutta, SN 47.4 and SN 47.10 will show how satipatthana, jhana, 7 awakening factors integrate seamlessly.

Also see this short related post:
why are sutta instructions on meditation so brief?
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... ns-on.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by frank k »

DeadBuddha wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:06 pm ...
Yes, I am a very beginner. I have only been practicing Pa Auk for 2 or 3 months.

Frankly, I don't know if it really works, but I'm trying anyway. I also need to try Leigh's method more.

I had heard people say that Pa Auk is wrong and has been leading people astray for years. I'm not sure what to make of that.
What problems do you notice in practitioners please?
The pa auk system, based on vism redefinition of jhāna (VRJ), and ajahn brahm's redefinition of jhāna (BRJ),
they "work" in the sense that they're meditation practices that will develop samatha.
Samatha is a nutriment of right samādhi, if developed correctly and holistically with the noble eightfold path.

The problem is VRJ and BRJ redefine important key words relating to samādhi, so it renders the Buddha's suttas and his meditation instructions as unintellegible, inconsistent, and incoherent.

So that's major problem #1.

Now for other practical problems, here are some of them:

See these articles linked from this page:
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/index.html

🔗Teachers who teach 4 Jhānas correctly, according to EBT suttas, not LBT redefinition of jhāna
🔗In pictures: this is your mind in samādhi, 🔗and mind on nimitta
🔗Don't give up on jhāna, till you drink from the sutta cup
🔗mirror, mirror on the wall, do I have bias, integrity, or none at all?
🔗AN 5.113, AN 5.139 Ajahn Brahm wrong samadhi in pictures
🔗AN 7.67: The Buddha, Pa Auk Sayadaw, and Ajahn Brahm walk in to a Jhāna juice smoothie bar...
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
DeadBuddha
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by DeadBuddha »

frank k wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:58 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:06 pm ...
Yes, I am a very beginner. I have only been practicing Pa Auk for 2 or 3 months.

Frankly, I don't know if it really works, but I'm trying anyway. I also need to try Leigh's method more.

I had heard people say that Pa Auk is wrong and has been leading people astray for years. I'm not sure what to make of that.
What problems do you notice in practitioners please?
The pa auk system, based on vism redefinition of jhāna (VRJ), and ajahn brahm's redefinition of jhāna (BRJ),
they "work" in the sense that they're meditation practices that will develop samatha.
Samatha is a nutriment of right samādhi, if developed correctly and holistically with the noble eightfold path.

The problem is VRJ and BRJ redefine important key words relating to samādhi, so it renders the Buddha's suttas and his meditation instructions as unintellegible, inconsistent, and incoherent.

So that's major problem #1.

Now for other practical problems, here are some of them:

See these articles linked from this page:
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/index.html

🔗Teachers who teach 4 Jhānas correctly, according to EBT suttas, not LBT redefinition of jhāna
🔗In pictures: this is your mind in samādhi, 🔗and mind on nimitta
🔗Don't give up on jhāna, till you drink from the sutta cup
🔗mirror, mirror on the wall, do I have bias, integrity, or none at all?
🔗AN 5.113, AN 5.139 Ajahn Brahm wrong samadhi in pictures
🔗AN 7.67: The Buddha, Pa Auk Sayadaw, and Ajahn Brahm walk in to a Jhāna juice smoothie bar...
Thank you very much for your help, I really appreciate your nuanced position !!!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:55 pm It begins at access concentration. Noble Silence is more refined again. No one said the goal is to silence the mind, so this looks like a straw man.
How is access concentration in pali, and where is it found in the suttas?


Thanks.
In Pāli it's Upacāra Samādhi. I don't think it appears in the suttas, as far as I'm aware. It's somewhat similar to Venerable Vimalaramsi's "6 Rs" of meditation, which also do not occur in the suttas.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”


- Tālapuṭattheragāthā
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Alex123
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:22 am In Pāli it's Upacāra Samādhi. I don't think it appears in the suttas, as far as I'm aware.
Exactly. So I wonder about the authenticity of teachings that rely on upacara samadhi (and other similar things).
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:22 am It's somewhat similar to Venerable Vimalaramsi's "6 Rs" of meditation, which also do not occur in the suttas.
In anapanasati there is a step to feel the entire body and then to calm/tranquilize/relax it. So these two, often overlooked, instructions are found there.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:58 pm The pa auk system, based on vism redefinition of jhāna (VRJ), and ajahn brahm's redefinition of jhāna (BRJ),
they "work" in the sense that they're meditation practices that will develop samatha.
Brahm says that he knows the best what Buddha bhavana is, similar to you.
https://bswa.org/bswp/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ajahn-brahm_the-basic-method-of-meditation.pdf wrote: For those who are misled to conceive of all this as `just
Samatha practice' without regard to Insight (Vipassana),
please know that this is neither Vipassan* nor Samatha. It is
called `Bhavana', the method taught by the Lord Buddha
and repeated in the Forest Tradition of NE Thailand of
which my teacher, Ven. Ajahn Chah, was a part.
What Brahm says about jhana,
wrote:The `knower' is still functioning, you are
fully aware, but all the controls are now beyond reach. You
cannot even form a single thought, let alone make a
decision. The will is frozen, and this can appear scary to the
beginner.
the possible reason why he says there is no control lies in the absence of the doer,
wrote:..or else at the
recognition that to go fully inside the Jhana, something
must be left behind - You! The `doer' is silent before
entering Jhana but it is still there. Inside Jhana, the `doer' is
completely gone.
Those same qualities occur with the simple 'being aware' state. Besides, these qualities are precursor to becoming aware. The reason why can't maintain an activity is that you gonna need choose whether you are aware or hammering a nail into the wall, to have the precision to hit the nail you gotta come out of being aware state. Can personally test it out anytime. Its how the nerve pathways(or whatever it is) function.
There is mental image of what you are doing and the real thing you do, this difference is made obsolete when you integrate the aware state reaching into your limbs. Not mentioning stages inbwteen what are gone through, including dream state penetrating real sensation. Idk maybe better curate or analyze through your own experience and tell how you do? your friend's Capibara-samadhi is not the best item to challenge visuddhimagga or lineage what brahm is part of.

Brahm says,
wrote: This is not a trance, but a state of heightened
awareness. This is said so that you may know for yourself
whether what you take to be a Jhana is real or imaginary.
after saying this,
wrote:Furthermore, you should
know that while in any Jhana it is impossible to experience
the body (e.g. physical pain), hear a sound from outside or
produce any thought, not even `good' thoughts. There is just
a clear singleness of perception, an experience of nondualistic bliss which continues unchanging for a very long
time.
notice he says hear a sound from the outside. It leaves room to the possibility of hearing the sound from the inside what is outside. If he is same lineage with Chah, then can find out what that Ajahn said about hearing sounds, a homework what frankk haven't done.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re - breathing body in anapanasati, body of bodies

Breathing body is to highlight contrast to other manner of kaya contemplation.
Breathing body denotes the common called organic body, with nerve system.
There are variety of other manners of contemplation, for example -
Inner vision of corps, skull...
Mental impression of bodies posture...
Enumeration of body parts ...
great element...

Those are all prescript methods of kaya, they are all distinctive from each other, albeit each one of them can render the insight into anicca dukkha anatta.

Anapanasati is pertaining to the breathing body. One has to make a decision to devote to breath or inner vision/else.

One particular about breathing body is worth notice, is that
Breathing body is old kamma. The rest is lack of this perspective.

It makes Breathing body harder to penetrate, being vis-a-vis with our own tendencies.
But it is also stable, readily available. and we can work off some old kamma while meditating.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:27 pm

Exactly. So I wonder about the authenticity of teachings that rely on upacara samadhi (and other similar things).
Personally it makes sense to me that before entering Jhāna there will be a stage where the Jhāna factors arise but are still weak, especially for a beginner. You are of course free to believe though that it's a black and white thing, that one moment you aren't in Jhāna and in the next you are fully in it. If I recall the suttas also sometimes discuss Jhāna in the sense of it being a bit "wobbly".
In anapanasati there is a step to feel the entire body and then to calm/tranquilize/relax it. So these two, often overlooked, instructions are found there.
No one overlooks them, there are just different interpretations. Personally the idea that its the whole body, in the way you paint it, makes little sense to me. It makes more sense to me that it is the whole body of breath that one is aware of. Others though do read it in your way (although, even then there are further differences in what this means). It's probably an old debate, since we have suttas/sutras which say "whole body" whilst others say to be aware of "all of the breaths". In the end though I don't think it matters much, since be it whole physical body or the whole breath the end results seem to be the same. For example, if you look at Sarvāstivādin based meditation texts, where the breath is known throughout the whole body (even breathing through the pores) there too they end up with nimittas and something like the absorption described in Theravāda (although not exactly the same).
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”


- Tālapuṭattheragāthā
jinic
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by jinic »

According to Theravada the mind is divorced from the 5 sense faculties in first jhana (no hearing, no seeing, no bodily sensations, etc). It's canonical and among the Points of Controversy.
Points of Controversy wrote:18.8 Of Hearing in Jhāna

Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.

Theravādin: If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny … You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness. You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such? But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .

Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that

“Sound is a thorn for First Jhāna”?

Hence one in Jhāna can surely hear sound.

Theravādin: You say that one in Jhāna can hear sound, and quote the Word as to it being for First Jhāna a “thorn”. Now it was further said that thought applied and sustained is a thorn for Second Jhāna—does one in Second Jhāna have applied and sustained thought? … Again, it was further said that the mental factor last eliminated is a thorn for the stage newly attained—zest for Third, respiration for Fourth Jhāna, perception of visible objects for consciousness of space-infinity, this perception for that of consciousness as infinite, this perception for that of nothingness, perception and feeling for cessation of these in trance. Now is “the thorn” actually present on the winning of the stage whence it is pronounced to be a thorn? If not, then how can you say that the “thorn” of hearing sound is present to one in First Jhāna?


https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung ... ight=false
However Theravadins also needed to explain passages like this here
Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.

https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/bodhi?r ... ight=false
I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

https://suttacentral.net/an3.63/en/bodh ... ight=false
There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This is obviously a big problem and commmentators came up with explainations like this;
Bhikkhu Bodhi notes [on an3.63]:

Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier.
However i don't think many people were satisfied with such explainations and there was a need for additional doctrine found in Vissudhimagga
* khanika samadhi - momentary concentration
* upacara samadhi - access [borderline] concentration
* appana samadhi - absorbtion concentration
* the doctrine of "dry insight" with it's 'imperfections of insight"
The Ten Imperfections of Insight (vipassanupakilesas):

An inexperienced meditator may be confused by any of the following experiences, mistakenly believing that he or she has reached nibbana. Though not in themselves obstacles, the meditator may be tempted to cling to these experiences, believing them to be important, rather than continuing to note the arising and passing away of mental and physical phenomena in the present moment. At such time the guidance of a teacher is invaluable.

Obhasa (illumination)

Obhasa is the first defilement of insight.

The meditator may be aware of the following manifestations of light:

He may see a light similar to a firefly, a torch or a car headlamp.The room may be lit up, enabling the meditator to see his or her own body.He or she may be aware of light that seems to pass through the wall.There may be a light enabling one to see various places before one's eyes.There may be a bright light as though a door had opened. Some meditators lift up their hands as if to shut it; others open their eyes to see what caused the light.A vision of brightly colored flowers surrounded by light may be seen.Miles and miles of sea may be seen.Rays of light seem to emit from the meditator's heart and body.Hallucinations such as seeing an elephant may occur.

Piti (Joy or rapture)

Piti is the second defilement of insight. There are five kinds of piti.

1. Khuddaka piti (minor rapture)

This state is characterized by the following:

The meditator may be aware of a white color.There may be a feeling of coolness or dizziness and the hairs of the body may stand on end.The meditator may cry or feel terrified.

2. Khanika piti (momentary rapture)

Characteristics of this piti include:

Seeing flashes of light.Seeing sparks.Nervous twitching.A feeling of stiffness all over the body.A feeling as if ants were crawling on the body.A feeling of heat all over the body.Shivering.Seeing red colors.The hair on the body rising slightly.Itchiness as if ants were crawling on one's face and body.

3. Okkantika piti (flood of joy)

In this piti:

The body may shake and tremble.The face, hands and feet may twitch.There may be violent shaking as if the bed is going to turn upside down.Nausea and at times actual vomiting may occur.There may be a rhythmic feeling like waves breaking on the shore.Ripples of energy may seem to flow over the body.The body may vibrate like a stick which is fixed in a flowing stream.A light yellow color may be observed.The body may bend to and fro.

4. Ubbenka piti (uplifting joy)

In this piti:

The body feels as if it is extending or moving upwards.There may be a feeling as though lice are climbing on the face and body.Diarrhea may occur.The body may bend forwards or backwards.One may feel that one's head has been moved backwards and forwards by somebody.There may be a chewing movement with the mouth either open or closed.The body sways like a tree being blown by the wind.The body bends forwards and may fall down.There may be fidgeting movements of the body.There may be jumping movements of the body.Arms and legs may be raised or may twitch.The body may bend forwards or may recline.A silver gray color may be observed.

5. Pharana piti (pervading rapture)

In this piti:

A feeling of coldness spreads through the body.Peace of mind sets in occasionally.There may be itchy feelings all over the body.There may be drowsy feelings and the meditator may not wish to open his or her eyes.The meditator has no wish to move.There may be a flushing sensation from feet to head or vice versa.The body may feel cool as if taking a bath or touching ice.The meditator may see blue or emerald green colors.An itchy feeling as though lice are crawling on the face may occur.

3. Passadhi

The third defilement of vipassana is passadhi which means "tranquility of mental factors and consciousness." It is characterized as follows:

There may be a quiet, peaceful state resembling the attainment of insight.There will be no restlessness or mental rambling.Mindful acknowledgement is easy.The meditator feels comfortably cool and does not fidget.The meditator feels satisfied with his powers of acknowledgement.There may be a feeling similar to falling asleep.There may be a feeling of lightness.Concentration is good and there is no forgetfulness.Thoughts are quite clear.A cruel, harsh or merciless person will realize that the dhamma is profound.A criminal or drunkard will be able to give up bad habits and will change into quite a different person.

4. Sukha

The fourth defilement of vipassana is sukha which means "bliss" and has the following characteristics:

There may be a feeling of comfort.Due to pleasant feelings the meditator may wish to continue practicing for a long time.The meditator may wish to tell other people of the results which he has already gained.The meditator may feel immeasurably proud and happy.Some say that they have never known such happiness.Some feel deeply grateful to their teachers.Some meditators feel that their teacher is at hand to give help.

5. Saddha

The next defilement of vipassana is saddha which is defined as fervor, resolution or determination, and has the following characteristics:

The practitioner may have too much faith.He or she may wish everybody to practice vipassana.He may wish to persuade those he comes in contact with to practice.He may wish to repay the meditation center for its benefaction.The meditator may wish to accelerate and deepen his practice.<He or she may wish to perform meritorious deeds, give alms and build and repair Buddhist buildings and artifacts.He may feel grateful to the person who persuaded him to practice.He may wish to give offerings to his teacher.A meditator may wish to be ordained as a Buddhist monk or nun.He may not wish to stop practicing.He might wish to go and stay in a quiet, peaceful place.The meditator may decide to practice wholeheartedly.

6. Paggaha

The next defilement of vipassana is paggaha which means exertion or strenuousness and is defined as follows:

Sometimes the meditator may practice too strenuously.He may intend to practice rigorously, even unto death.The meditator overexerts himself so that attentiveness and clear comprehension are weak, causing distraction and lack of concentration

7. Upatthana, which means "mindfulness," is the next defilement of vipassana, and it is characterized by the following:

Sometimes excessive concentration upon thought causes the meditator to leave acknowledgement of the present and inclines him to think of the past or future.The meditator may be unduly concerned with happenings which took place in the past.The meditator may have vague recollections of past lives.

8. Nana

The next vipassanupakilesa is nana which means "knowledge" and is defined as follows:

Theoretical knowledge may become confused with practice. The meditator misunderstands but thinks that he is right. he may become fond of ostentatiousness and like contending with his teacher.A meditator may make comments about various objects. For example when the abdomen rises he may say "arising" and when it falls he may say "ceasing."The meditator may consider various principles which he knows or has studied.The present cannot be grasped. Usually it is "thinking" which fills up the mind. This may be referred to as "thought-based knowledge," jinta nana.

9. Upekkha

The ninth defilement of vipassana is upekkha which has the meaning of not caring or indifference. It can be described as follows:

The mind of the meditator is indifferent, neither pleased nor displeased, nor forgetful. The rising and falling of the abdomen is indistinct and at times imperceptible.The meditator is unmindful, at times thinking of nothing in particular.The rising and falling of the abdomen may be intermittently perceptible.The mind is undisturbed and peaceful.The meditator is indifferent to bodily needs.The meditator is unaffected when in contact with either good or bad objects. Mindful acknowledgement is disregarded and attention is allowed to follow exterior objects to a great extent.

10. Nikanti

The tenth vipassanupakilesa is nikanti which means "gratification" and it has the following characteristics:

The meditator finds satisfaction in various objects.He is satisfied with light, joy, happiness, faith, exertion, knowledge and even-mindedness.He is satisfied with various nimittas (visions)
In regards to this one gets explainations like these here
Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.

When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.

The disappearance of the light, and so forth — the corruptions of insight (upakkilesa) — marks an advance in the insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of phenomena. Then there is no joy, but bliss is very intense. The mind is tranquil and free from distractions. The meditator has the bliss and one-pointedness that are characteristics of the third absorption.

The higher levels of insight-knowledge such as knowledge of dissolution (bhangañāna), wherein the meditator sees only the passing away usually have nothing to do with joy. They are characterised by equanimity and one-pointedness. The former is especially pronounced at the stage of knowledge of equanimity about formations. At this stage the insight meditation is akin to the fourth absorption with its two attributes of equanimity and one-pointedness

https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... -Sutta.pdf
One thing that stands out is the lack of incorporation of Kasina into all of this. Kasina have a very different role in the Sutta discourse compared to what is made of it in Vsm and i'll leave it at that.

To sum up.

As i see it, the Abhidhamma interpretation should be supplemented with the additional doctrine pertaining to dry insight for the sutta to make sense.
BrokenBones
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi jinic

It's called papering over the cracks (polyfilla required at times).

The Buddha's teachings need no retrospective fiddling... his teachings are perfect as they are.
jinic
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by jinic »

As to what one should practice.

Id recommend training satipatthana but not be like the unskillful monk
"Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He does not take note of[1] his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook does not pick up on the theme of his own master.

"In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements[2] are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact.[3] He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk does not take note of his own mind.[4]
Don't do this
The poem, often used by meditation teachers, suggests that we should welcome in all our emotions, feelings, experiences — good or bad — the same way we might welcome a guest into our home.
Instead take note of your mind and do this
The Blessed One said: "Even if a monk is not skilled in the ways of the minds of others.[1] he should train himself: 'I will be skilled in reading my own mind.'

"And how is a monk skilled in reading his own mind? Imagine a young woman — or man — fond of adornment, examining the image of her own face in a bright, clean mirror or bowl of clear water: If she saw any dirt or blemish there, she would try to remove it. If she saw no dirt or blemish there, she would be pleased, her resolves fulfilled: 'How fortunate I am! How clean I am!' In the same way, a monk's self-examination is very productive in terms of skillful qualities:[2] 'Do I usually remain covetous or not? With thoughts of ill will or not? Overcome by sloth & drowsiness or not? Restless or not? Uncertain or gone beyond uncertainty? Angry or not? With soiled thoughts or unsoiled thoughts? With my body aroused or unaroused? Lazy or with persistence aroused? Unconcentrated or concentrated?'

"If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what, Ānanda, is the perception of abandoning? Here, a bhikkhu does not tolerate an arisen sensual thought; he abandons it, dispels it, terminates it, and obliterates it. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will … an arisen thought of harming … bad unwholesome states whenever they arise; he abandons them, dispels them, terminates them, and obliterates them. This is called the perception of abandoning.
And above all train like this
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
— (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
jinic
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by jinic »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:54 am Hi jinic

It's called papering over the cracks (polyfilla required at times).

The Buddha's teachings need no retrospective fiddling... his teachings are perfect as they are.
Clearly something went very wrong somewhere along the road because before attaining Parinibbana teacher asked
Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "It may be, bhikkhus, that one of you is in doubt or perplexity as to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or the Sangha, the path or the practice. Then question, bhikkhus! Do not be given to remorse later on with the thought: 'The Master was with us face to face, yet face to face we failed to ask him.'"

6. But when this was said, the bhikkhus were silent. And yet a second and a third time the Blessed One said to them: "It may be, bhikkhus, that one of you is in doubt or perplexity as to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or the Sangha, the path or the practice. Then question, bhikkhus! Do not be given to remorse later on with the thought: 'The Master was with us face to face, yet face to face we failed to ask him.'"

And for a second and a third time the bhikkhus were silent. Then the Blessed One said to them: "It may be, bhikkhus, out of respect for the Master that you ask no questions. Then, bhikkhus, let friend communicate it to friend." Yet still the bhikkhus were silent.

7. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Marvellous it is, O Lord, most wonderful it is! This faith I have in the community of bhikkhus, that not even one bhikkhu is in doubt or perplexity as to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or the Sangha, the path or the practice."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html
Whereas now, as far as i know, there is not one who doesn't have perplexity about it's many points
jinic
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by jinic »

Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.
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