Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

It is sometimes argued that for the Pubbaseliya's (a branch of the Mahāsāṃghika) the 5 senses are experienced whilst in Jhāna. The claim is, as far as I'm aware, based solely on this section of the Kathāvatthu
Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.

Theravādin: If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny … You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness. You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such? But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .

Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that

“Sound is a thorn for First Jhāna”?

Hence one in Jhāna can surely hear sound.

Theravādin: You say that one in Jhāna can hear sound, and quote the Word as to it being for First Jhāna a “thorn”. Now it was further said that thought applied and sustained is a thorn for Second Jhāna—does one in Second Jhāna have applied and sustained thought? … Again, it was further said that the mental factor last eliminated is a thorn for the stage newly attained—zest for Third, respiration for Fourth Jhāna, perception of visible objects for consciousness of space-infinity, this perception for that of consciousness as infinite, this perception for that of nothingness, perception and feeling for cessation of these in trance. Now is “the thorn” actually present on the winning of the stage whence it is pronounced to be a thorn? If not, then how can you say that the “thorn” of hearing sound is present to one in First Jhāna?
https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung ... ight=false

I think this is a mis-reading. What tends not to be noticed is that the Pubbaseliya are said to agree that seeing, smelling, tasting and touch do not occur whilst in Jhāna (i've highlighted this above). The Pubbaseliyas then weren't arguing that the 5 senses occur in Jhāna, but were rather arguing that in order for sound to disturb the meditation it must be the case that whilst in Jhāna it's possible to hear sounds. This centres around a wider debate, regarding how someone can be pulled from the 1st Jhāna by hearing. To some, it happens when the Jhāna is "weak". To others, like the Pubbaseliya, the 5 senses are shut off whilst in Jhāna but even there its possible for it to be disturbed by sound. The point however is that even for this branch of the Mahāsāṃghika, Jhāna was thought of as being a state where the 5 senses are temporarily abandoned. That view isn't being debated. What is being debated is how a distraction can occur whilst in Jhāna. They actually have a similar view to Theravāda regarding what Jhāna is like:

You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

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Does the heart have darkness, bright light, both brown and yellow - transparent luminosity?

You hanker after a jhana without perception … yes … there is one. Quite simply, “cessation of perception and feeling”.

Lol. You do not see the properties of the heart. You worry about the properties of the sense faculties.

The list is clear. Perception and feeling end in the ninth and final jhana.

Work on the first jhana. Be an ordinary person. Expunge the darkness from your heart.

For all the reading and inspection you devote, you have missed the simple message. Open your heart, my friend.

You are not even as far along the path as a Jehovas Witness. Even a Jehovas witness understands the Buddha’s teaching better than you.

The Buddha taught the people what they already knew. But he taught it as only one who perfected it could. That is why they are taught systematically. Even for the most basic kind of spiritual searcher, these properties of the heart are evident.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
BrokenBones
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

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For all the energies that have been devoted to this subject it appears that we are addicted to dispute.

One side is entrenched in its view as is the other side (the right one 😉)... I believe that all the arguments surrounding the suttas have been exhausted in regards to body in jhana (or not) and it really serves no purpose to keep disputing.

Having said that... I'm sure we will all continue... 🤣
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:44 am
You hanker after a jhana without perception … yes … there is one. Quite simply, “cessation of perception and feeling”.
No one teaches that Jhana is without perception.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:09 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:44 am
You hanker after a jhana without perception … yes … there is one. Quite simply, “cessation of perception and feeling”.
No one teaches that Jhana is without perception.
Then what do they teach. Have you not repeated many times that one in jhana cannot hear, see, taste, touch, or smell?

That there is only “mind”?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

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BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:50 am For all the energies that have been devoted to this subject it appears that we are addicted to dispute.

One side is entrenched in its view as is the other side (the right one 😉)... I believe that all the arguments surrounding the suttas have been exhausted in regards to body in jhana (or not) and it really serves no purpose to keep disputing.

Having said that... I'm sure we will all continue... 🤣
One has more knowledge than wisdom. The other more wisdom than knowledge. 😉
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

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Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:09 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:44 am
You hanker after a jhana without perception … yes … there is one. Quite simply, “cessation of perception and feeling”.
No one teaches that Jhana is without perception.
Then what do they teach. Have you not repeated many times that one in jhana cannot hear, see, taste, touch, or smell?

That there is only “mind”?
Because attention is on one place the other senses fade away. I quite like how the Vimuttimagga puts things
He should dwell with earnestness on the maṇḍala. Thus should the yogin dwell (on the maṇḍala) in order to gain fixity of mind. As a man looking at his own face in a mirror sees his face because of the mirror, i.e., because the face is reflected by the mirror, so the yogin dwelling on the maṇḍala sees the sign of concentration which arises, because of the maṇḍala. Thus should he take the sign by fixing the mind through even gazing. Thus one takes the sign through even gazing...

... if his mind is distracted and becomes negligent, he should endeavour like a potter at the wheel and, when his mind acquires fixity, he should gaze
on the maṇḍala, and letting' it pervade (his mind) fully and without faults consider calmness (?). Thus should skilfulness be known...

What is the meaning of fixed meditation, jhāna? Fixed meditation, jhāna, means yoga. Fixed meditation, jhāna, is like the mind entering the maṇḍala. There is no difference in meaning between renunciation, meditation' (Jhāna) and fixed meditation, (Jhāna). Here the yogin, dwelling in access, fixed maṇḍala (Jhāna) or the first meditation (Jhāna) should increase: the kasiṇa...

If his mind moves in one direction, the sign can be made to arise
Since there are 6 senses in Buddhism, not 5, the Jhānas are with perception. Even the formless, accept nevasaññānāsaññāyatana and nirodha-samāpatti, are with perception and everyone agrees at least that the formless are without the 5 senses.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:23 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:50 am For all the energies that have been devoted to this subject it appears that we are addicted to dispute.

One side is entrenched in its view as is the other side (the right one 😉)... I believe that all the arguments surrounding the suttas have been exhausted in regards to body in jhana (or not) and it really serves no purpose to keep disputing.

Having said that... I'm sure we will all continue... 🤣
One has more knowledge than wisdom. The other more wisdom than knowledge. 😉
Knowledge and wisdom in the Dhamma are the same thing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:09 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:09 pm

No one teaches that Jhana is without perception.
Then what do they teach. Have you not repeated many times that one in jhana cannot hear, see, taste, touch, or smell?

That there is only “mind”?
Because attention is on one place the other senses fade away. I quite like how the Vimuttimagga puts things
He should dwell with earnestness on the maṇḍala. Thus should the yogin dwell (on the maṇḍala) in order to gain fixity of mind. As a man looking at his own face in a mirror sees his face because of the mirror, i.e., because the face is reflected by the mirror, so the yogin dwelling on the maṇḍala sees the sign of concentration which arises, because of the maṇḍala. Thus should he take the sign by fixing the mind through even gazing. Thus one takes the sign through even gazing...

... if his mind is distracted and becomes negligent, he should endeavour like a potter at the wheel and, when his mind acquires fixity, he should gaze
on the maṇḍala, and letting' it pervade (his mind) fully and without faults consider calmness (?). Thus should skilfulness be known...

What is the meaning of fixed meditation, jhāna? Fixed meditation, jhāna, means yoga. Fixed meditation, jhāna, is like the mind entering the maṇḍala. There is no difference in meaning between renunciation, meditation' (Jhāna) and fixed meditation, (Jhāna). Here the yogin, dwelling in access, fixed maṇḍala (Jhāna) or the first meditation (Jhāna) should increase: the kasiṇa...

If his mind moves in one direction, the sign can be made to arise
Since there are 6 senses in Buddhism, not 5, the Jhānas are with perception. Even the formless, accept nevasaññānāsaññāyatana and nirodha-samāpatti, are with perception and everyone agrees at least that the formless are without the 5 senses.
So, you’re dodging the ball here. Strictly speaking, you don’t believe hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, or touch exist in the material jhanas? But some level of perception may.

As for the eighth and ninth absorption. If you recall your suttas, even Nirodha Samapatti has perception.
That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”



be?”
“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:09 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:23 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:50 am For all the energies that have been devoted to this subject it appears that we are addicted to dispute.

One side is entrenched in its view as is the other side (the right one 😉)... I believe that all the arguments surrounding the suttas have been exhausted in regards to body in jhana (or not) and it really serves no purpose to keep disputing.

Having said that... I'm sure we will all continue... 🤣
One has more knowledge than wisdom. The other more wisdom than knowledge. 😉
Knowledge and wisdom in the Dhamma are the same thing.
That’s not true! Knowledge is the ninth step on the path of the Arahant and Wisdom is the tenth.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:43 pm

So, you’re dodging the ball here. Strictly speaking, you don’t believe hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, or touch exist in the material jhanas? But some level of perception may.

As for the eighth and ninth absorption. If you recall your suttas, even Nirodha Samapatti has perception.
I don't see how I was dodging anything, since I was stating why I think the 5 senses aren't present in Jhāna. On your sutta reference, I don't think that is referring to nirodha-samāpatti at all.

That’s not true! Knowledge is the ninth step on the path of the Arahant and Wisdom is the tenth.
It's Right Knowledge (sammāñāṇaṃ) and Right Liberation (sammāvimutti).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: Pubbaseliya Jhāna

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:50 am For all the energies that have been devoted to this subject it appears that we are addicted to dispute.

One side is entrenched in its view as is the other side (the right one 😉)... I believe that all the arguments surrounding the suttas have been exhausted in regards to body in jhana (or not) and it really serves no purpose to keep disputing.

Having said that... I'm sure we will all continue... 🤣
more arguments,

For example: happiness, sadness and equanimity are different.
Tho, they are on same level : "Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity."

happiness,
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:There are sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasing, connected with the world’s material delights. Happiness arises when you regard it as a gain to obtain such sights, or when you recollect sights you formerly obtained that have passed, ceased, and perished.
sadness,
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: There are sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasing, connected with the world’s material delights. Sadness arises when you regard it as a loss to lose such sights, or when you recollect sights you formerly lost that have passed, ceased, and perished.
equanimity,
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: When seeing a sight with the eye, equanimity arises for the unlearned ordinary person—a foolish ordinary person who has not overcome their limitations and the results of deeds, and is blind to the drawbacks.

Such equanimity does not transcend the sight.
The argument is that only the equanimity is capable of transcending the sight, sound etc.
By 'transcending the sight' it means the mind has overcome the limitations of the mind and the results of deeds.
I think it refers to the 4th brahmavihara.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.219/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:That noble disciple is rid of desire, rid of ill will, unconfused, aware, and mindful. They meditate spreading a heart full of love ..
..
They understand:
‘Formerly my mind was limited and undeveloped. Now it’s limitless and well developed. Whatever limited deeds I’ve done don’t remain or persist there.’
Possible context for 'transcending sight' is,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara wrote: Equanimity (Pāli: upekkhā, Sanskrit: upekṣā): is even-mindedness and serenity, treating everyone impartially.
and here is a sutta for that context, with same pali word sadda in a sutta(an10.72) what says there is no sound(sadda), not standard sota
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “There are lots of annoying sounds
“Bahūhi saddā paccūhā,
that an austere ascetic must endure.
khamitabbā tapassinā;
But they mustn’t be dismayed by that,
Na tena maṅku hotabbaṁ,
for that’s not what defiles you.
na hi tena kilissati.
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