Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

[Ceisiwr]

Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.

The discs are for beginners.

[BrokenBones]

Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.

The discs are for beginners.

No beginners in the suttas then?

I don't see the making, owning and carrying of such discs covered in the vinaya; which is surprising given the detailed rules on just about everything in the monks rules.

Perhaps the Buddha just forgot to mention them.

[Ceisiwr]

Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.

The discs are for beginners.

No beginners in the suttas then?

I don't see the making, owning and carrying of such discs covered in the vinaya; which is surprising given the detailed rules on just about everything in the monks rules.

Perhaps the Buddha just forgot to mention them.

Sure, but any kind of information on the kasiṇas in the suttas is scanty. You do find more detailed explanation of them though in Theravādin, Sarvāstivādin, Dharmaguptaka and, if I recall, Mahīśāsaka based texts. I would go out on a limb and say they also were found in now lost Mahāsāṃghika and Pudgalavādin texts. They also appear in some Mahāyāna texts too. No one back then seems to have found them controversial. On the Vinaya question, I'm not that well versed in it so I couldn't say. For an advanced meditator, or a naturally gifted one, discs and so forth aren't needed at all. Just by sitting in a forest they can practice them, based on the elements. The kasiṇas rather obviously being tied to element meditation, based on the suttas/sutras.

[Ceisiwr]

One thing that stands out is the lack of incorporation of Kasina into all of this. Kasina have a very different role in the Sutta discourse compared to what is made of it in Vsm and i'll leave it at that.

The suttas say very little about what Kasiṇa practice entails. Based on reading the suttas and parallels alone, all I can make out is that they are connected to element meditation and some ascetics took these non-dual experiences to be confirmation of some kind of atta.

[BrokenBones]

I tend to go by the outrageous assumption that if the Buddha didn't mention things then they are somewhat superfluous to the path. Also, obtuse and dubious mentions of something found here and there raises doubts.

It's amazing that a whole system of Buddhist meditation is founded upon clay discs and that this system we are meant to believe, was apparently central to the Buddha's message.

[jinic]

Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.

The discs are for beginners.

No beginners in the suttas then?

I don't see the making, owning and carrying of such discs covered in the vinaya; which is surprising given the detailed rules on just about everything in the monks rules.

Perhaps the Buddha just forgot to mention them.

Exactly.

I think that if there was an allowance to make discs it would inevitably be in the vinaya and there would be many mentions about these discs

* somebody would make these disc for other people, a disc-maker
* somebody would make discs for bhikkhunis
* somebody would make discs too lavish
* somebody would make discs too big
* somebody would have too many discs
* somebody would leave his disc here & there
* somebody would make discs from unallowable materials
* monasteries would have piles & heaps of abandoned discs
* discs would be expected to be preserved as relic artifacts

Nevermind the discs...

How about the fire, do you realize how diffucult it is to start a fire [which monks aren't allowed to do] and to keep it going in a forest?
* monks would need flint & tinder or would have to start it with friction
* monks would need candles, oil lamps or whatnot
* It would be very difficult in the rainy season
* It would be very dangerous in the hot season

Also here this endevour would need to be regulated because people will find a way to screw it up.

[BrokenBones]

Or perhaps a passing glance at a conveniently placed fire would suffice

I've made an argument before that the counterpart sign belongs to the world of sensuality (the mind becoming bright is entirely different to mentally observing an arisen bright light) these discs/fires/water etc. definitely belong to the sensual world.

[auto]

Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.

The discs are for beginners.

No beginners in the suttas then?

I don't see the making, owning and carrying of such discs covered in the vinaya; which is surprising given the detailed rules on just about everything in the monks rules.

Perhaps the Buddha just forgot to mention them.

There are beginners in the sutta. Savakas. Who doesn't know how to perceive sign as signless, thus they still have the ripening in attachments(like external objects). After the attainment to the cessation of perception and feeling upon emerging from that state the mind will make contact with the signless.
So, if you already know what signless is(know how to cognize), then you are skipping the aforementioned part because the mind isn't scattered externally following the signs of a sight.

[auto]

Or perhaps a passing glance at a conveniently placed fire would suffice

I've made an argument before that the counterpart sign belongs to the world of sensuality (the mind becoming bright is entirely different to mentally observing an arisen bright light) these discs/fires/water etc. definitely belong to the sensual world.

Counterpart sign does belong to the world of sensuality. But i don't know if it is categorized like that. Any case it is the further down the line change-of-lineage(gotrabhū) thought moment what goes beyond sensuality.

[Ceisiwr]

I tend to go by the outrageous assumption that if the Buddha didn't mention things then they are somewhat superfluous to the path. Also, obtuse and dubious mentions of something found here and there raises doubts.

It's amazing that a whole system of Buddhist meditation is founded upon clay discs and that this system we are meant to believe, was apparently central to the Buddha's message.

Ok, but he did mention the Kasiṇas.

Or perhaps a passing glance at a conveniently placed fire would suffice

I've made an argument before that the counterpart sign belongs to the world of sensuality (the mind becoming bright is entirely different to mentally observing an arisen bright light) these discs/fires/water etc. definitely belong to the sensual world.

For advanced meditators, or naturally gifted ones, they can obtain the sign by focusing on any object. A tree, a flame, wind, a stream and so on. On the counterpart sign, why do you think that belongs to the kāma-loka?

[Ceisiwr]

Exactly.

I think that if there was an allowance to make discs it would inevitably be in the vinaya and there would be many mentions about these discs

* somebody would make these disc for other people, a disc-maker
* somebody would make discs for bhikkhunis
* somebody would make discs too lavish
* somebody would make discs too big
* somebody would have too many discs
* somebody would leave his disc here & there
* somebody would make discs from unallowable materials
* monasteries would have piles & heaps of abandoned discs
* discs would be expected to be preserved as relic artifacts

Nevermind the discs...

How about the fire, do you realize how diffucult it is to start a fire [which monks aren't allowed to do] and to keep it going in a forest?
* monks would need flint & tinder or would have to start it with friction
* monks would need candles, oil lamps or whatnot
* It would be very difficult in the rainy season
* It would be very dangerous in the hot season

Also here this endevour would need to be regulated because people will find a way to screw it up.

They can make an object for practice even out of petals from a flower, or some cloth. For example, for the blue Kasiṇa

12. Next it is said [in the Commentaries]: “One who is learning the blue kasiṇa apprehends the sign in blue, whether in a flower or in a cloth or in a colour element.”3 Firstly, when someone has merit, having had previous practice, the sign arises in him when he sees a bush with blue flowers, or such flowers spread out on a place of offering, or any blue cloth or gem.
13. [173] But anyone else should take flowers such as blue lotuses, girikaóóiká (morning glory) flowers, etc., and spread them out to fill a tray or a flat basket completely so that no stamen or stalk shows or with only their petals. Or he can fill it with blue cloth bunched up together; or he can fasten the cloth over the rim of the tray or basket like the covering of a drum. Or he can make a kasiṇa disk, either portable as described under the earth kasiṇa or on a wall, with one of the colour elements such as bronze-green, leaf-green, añjana-ointment black, surrounding it with a different colour. After that, he should bring it to mind as “blue, blue” in the way already described under the earth kasiṇa .

Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER V The Remaining Kasiṇas

Or perhaps a bowl of water, for the water kasiṇa.

2. Here too, when someone has had practice in previous [lives], the sign arises for him in water that is not made up, such as a pool, a lake, a lagoon, or the oceanas in the case of the Elder Cú¿a-Sìva. The venerable one, it seems, thought to abandon gain and honour and live a secluded life. He boarded a ship at Mahátittha (Mannar) and sailed to Jambudìpa (India). As he gazed at the ocean meanwhile, the kasiṇa sign, the counterpart of that ocean, arose in him.
3. Someone with no such previous practice should guard against the four faults of a kasiṇa (IV.24) and not apprehend the water as one of the colours, blue, yellow, red or white. He should fill a bowl or a four-footed water pot to the brim with water uncontaminated by soil, taken in the open through a clean cloth [strainer], or with any other clear unturbid water. He should put it in a screened place on the outskirts of the monastery as already described and seat himself comfortably. He should neither review its colour nor bring its characteristic to mind. Apprehending the colour as belonging to its physical support, he should set his mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, and using any among the [various] names for water (ápo) such as “rain” (ambu), “liquid” (udaka), “dew” (vári), “fluid” (salila), he should develop [the kasiṇa] by using [preferably] the obvious “water, water.

Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER V The Remaining Kasiṇas

Monasteries will of course have cloth, or bowls of water, or candles. On making a fire, I can't comment if that is against the Vinaya or not as I don't know it that well.

[BrokenBones]

I don't think the Visuddhimagga takes prominence over Vinaya. Monks are not to pick flowers and the lighting of fires only when necessary is explained in detail in the vinaya... no kasina mentioned (it borders on fire offering which is definitely raked over the coals in vinaya & sutta).

You see how contrary and out of left field so much of the Visuddhimagga is?

It fails miserably with the little things... how much more the big things?

[jinic]

I don't think the Visuddhimagga takes prominence over Vinaya. Monks are not to pick flowers and the lighting of fires only when necessary is explained in detail in the vinaya... no kasina mentioned (it borders on fire offering which is definitely raked over the coals in vinaya & sutta).

You see how contrary and out of left field so much of the Visuddhimagga is?

It fails miserably with the little things... how much more the big things?

That book should've been called Avijja Nikaya.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone did steal the manuscript 3 times because that book is more harm than good.

[jinic]

some say that vitakka and vicārā mean "applied attention" and "sustained attention", respectively, when in truth it seems that vitakka and vicara mean, respectively, simply, "knowingly willed and time-limited verbal discursive thought".

There are some explainations of these terms

Therein what is initial application? That which is mentation, thinking, thought, fixation, focussing, application of the mind, right thought. This is called initial application.

Therein what is sustained application? That which is searching, examining, constant examining, scrutinizing, constant connection of (and) constant inspection by consciousness. This is called sustained application.

https://suttacentral.net/vb12/en/thitti ... ight=false

13. 'What is the distinguishing characteristic, Nâgasena, of reflection (Vitakka).

p. 96

'The effecting of an aim 1.'

'Give me an illustration.'

'It is like the case of a carpenter, great king, who fixes in a joint a well-fashioned piece of wood. Thus is it that the effecting of an aim is the mark of reflection.'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'
____________________

14. 'What is the distinguishing characteristic, Nâgasena, of investigation (Vikâra)?'

'Threshing out again and again 2.'

'Give me an illustration.'

'It is like the case of the copper vessel, which, when it is being beaten into shape [63], makes a sound again and again as it gradually gathers shape 3. The beating into shape is to be regarded as reflection, and the sounding again and again as investigation. Thus is it, great king, that threshing out again and again is the mark of investigation.'

'Very good, Nâgasena!'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3506.htm

As i understand it, this is analogical to explaining that a drawn point [a dot] is a point on a drawn line, a dot is not a line but a drawn line is only a successive application of points [dots].

In other words it's explaining a thought as being of thinking but not as thinking because thinking is explained as the successive application of thought.

The sutta explain
* vv are verbal formations because having made them one breaks into speech.
* speech ceases in the 1st jhana
* vv ceases in the 2nd jhana
* sound is a thorn in the first jhana

I think that the most apparent reading is
* Speech ceases in the first jhana because one doesn't break into speech to be cognized by the ear
* Sound to cognized by the ear is an altogether thorn in the first jhana because attention to sound breaks one's samadhi analogically to how attention to melody breaks the samadhi of recitation

You relish the sound of your own voice. Others relish the sound of your voice.

Householders complain: These ascetics, followers of the Sakyan, sing just like us!’

When you’re enjoying the melody, your immersion [samadhi] breaks up.

Those who come after follow your example.

These are the five drawbacks in reciting with a drawn-out singing sound.”

https://suttacentral.net/an5.209/en/suj ... ript=latin

[DeadBuddha]

Hello,

Thank you for your answer.

* speech ceases in the 1st jhana

Where does it explain that verbal discursive thoughts are non-existent during the first jhâna?

I think that the most apparent reading is
* Speech ceases in the first jhana because one doesn't break into speech to be cognized by the ear
* Sound to cognized by the ear is an altogether thorn in the first jhana because attention to sound breaks one's samadhi analogically to how attention to melody breaks the samadhi of recitation

In his book "What you may not know about jhana and samadhi" (https://justpaste.it/jbook ), Kumara Bikkhu explains why the fact that "sound is a thorn for the first jhana" does not mean that sound is non-existent in the first jhana:

Some meditators, by conviction of their own experience, say we can’t hear sound when engaging in the jhānas, not even the first one. I agree; it’s true for the complete absorption, Visuddhimagga jhāna.
However, some among them claim they are going by the Suttas, citing a statement in Kaṇṭaka Sutta (AN10.72): “Sound is a thorn (kaṇṭaka) to the first jhāna.”162 (Both “thorn” and “kaṇṭaka” carry the figurative meaning of “source of discomfort” or “bother”.) They seem to interpret the statement as “Sound hinders one from attaining the first jhāna”. Then upon attaining the first jhāna (and by logic the rest too), one isn’t supposed to hear any sound. But is this view supported by that sutta statement?
Firstly, if it is speaking of sound hindering one’s attaining of the first jhāna, that means there’s no jhāna yet. If there’s no jhāna, then what is there for sound to be a thorn to? Besides, if that interpretation is correct, sound wouldn’t be a thorn; it would be a hindrance.
Secondly, if it does mean one can’t hear any sound upon attaining the first jhāna, then sound wouldn’t be a thorn or bother at all. How can sound bother one who can’t hear it?
So, actually, saying that sound is a thorn or bother to the first jhāna doesn’t mean one can’t hear sound in the first jhāna; it means one can!
To be sure that this understanding is correct, we can refer to other ‘thorny’ statements in the sutta. For example, just before the statement quoted above, we find “Proximity with womenfolk (mātugāmūpacāra) is a thorn to the divine-practice (brahmacariya).” (The Buddha must be speaking to monks only then.) Does that mean men of divine-practice, such as Buddhist monks, are disabled from noticing women near them? Hasn’t happened to me yet.
So the sutta statement “Sound is a thorn to the first jhāna” does not support the idea that we can’t hear sounds in the Sutta jhāna. Instead, it supports the opposite. Nonetheless, one can rightly say sound can’t be heard in the absorption jhāna.
In the same sutta, we find that sound is not a thorn to the second jhāna or higher. Does that mean sound can’t be heard in those jhānas? Not so. It just means that to higher jhānas, sound is not a thorn, not a source of discomfort, not a bother.