Encountering devas and mental illness

[Mahabrahma]

Nanda needed to wake up and stop thinking in the physical. His words were not Dharmic in the Sutta you just posted.

[Bundokji]

Nanda needed to wake up and stop thinking in the physical. His words were not Dharmic in the Sutta you just posted.

The sutta indicates that the nymphs he saw were real. He knew it (and loved it), to use your criteria of ingenuity!

[dharmacorps]

I've been serving and ministering to mentally ill people for the past sixteen years, and what I can say is that mindfulness and other forms of meditation are quite important to get the mind in order. Buddhism is really something that has caught on in the Mental Health industry, especially with the different recovery Paradigms Thich Nhat Hanh has provided to the System.

I didn't say mentally ill people in general. And I didn't refer to other forms of mindfulness.

I said schizophrenic people or those with hallucinations specifically as it relates to the subject-- standard sitting meditation and visions arising from there.

[dharmacorps]

So, if the meditation teacher confirms it, that makes it genuine?

I guess a first encounter would be particularly scary for non-schizophrenic, considering that they are not accustomed to extra-sensory experiences.

I suppose. From what I understand and have heard from experienced meditation teachers, most of the time it is trying to keep the student grounded and stopping them from believing everything they are seeing is real. Thanissaro Bhikkhu has often said that if you have visions in meditation it isn't necessarily a good thing. It means you need more oversight and assistance than those who don't.

I'm glad i don't have them.

[Mahabrahma]

I've been serving and ministering to mentally ill people for the past sixteen years, and what I can say is that mindfulness and other forms of meditation are quite important to get the mind in order. Buddhism is really something that has caught on in the Mental Health industry, especially with the different recovery Paradigms Thich Nhat Hanh has provided to the System.

I didn't say mentally ill people in general. And I didn't refer to other forms of mindfulness.

I said schizophrenic people or those with hallucinations specifically as it relates to the subject-- standard sitting meditation and visions arising from there.

I understand. But Buddhist Meditation is natural to the mind or there would be no Buddha-Nature or Tathagata to back it up who went forth. Many people had visions, even Buddha saw various Unseen beings many times. So meaning can be found in certain alternative perceptions, and deep down everyone should be able to practice Buddhism, because deep down everyone actually wants to, at least in some way.

[Bundokji]

I'm glad i don't have them.

In general, i share your sentiment. I was thinking along the lines of taking refuge and recollecting the devas as an aid to meditation and developing insight. I would not rule out that there can be genuine encounters in a dhammic sense. Even magicians get help from the underworld.

[dharmacorps]

I understand. But Buddhist Meditation is natural to the mind or there would be no Buddha-Nature or Tathagata to back it up who went forth. Many people had visions, even Buddha saw various Unseen beings many times. So meaning can be found in certain alternative perceptions, and deep down everyone should be able to practice Buddhism, because deep down everyone actually wants to, at least in some way.

OK, but that high minded "should" idea may not practically help a person in the grips of a psychotic disorder. They cannot trust their mind. Telling a schizophrenic to indulge in "alternative peceptions"? Yikes.

[Mahabrahma]

Okay! I'll leave you to explore the subject in depth. Time will give you a better answer than I can.

[Jack19990101]

Psychologists & doctors can't help us much on this journey.

In the state of becoming, there is nobody to call.
One only has himself, and his state of mind.

If we have been taken pills to manage state of mind, it gonna be a proper horror during rebirth process.

There is no cvs, there is no talking therapist in rebirth process. No loved ones sits next comforting us during the horror show.

We need to figure out what we can bring across the line of physical death, to not let our emotions taking rein in that lonely lonely journey.

Wisdom, faith, acquired skillful habits - they can come with us over death.

I would almost say that one should only come to take refuge with triple Gem, after they exhaust their refuge with modern era psychology & chemists.

It is foolish(albeit rather good hearted) to recommend psychologists unless one is viewed as a lost cause in context of Dhamma practice.

[Mahabrahma]

I think you aught not give counter medical advice like go off meds or the bardo will be hell, or don't take Refuge until you go off your meds. That's incorrect advice. I've worked with enough nurses to show that people on their meds are just as normal as the person to the left of you, possibly even more functional because their mind has expanded in their condition, and there is more to manage. But once they start managing it it is certain that they are quite Spiritually inclined people as opposed to the average Joe quite often.

[Bundokji]

Psychologists & doctors can't help us much on this journey.

In the state of becoming, there is nobody to call.
One only has himself, and his state of mind.

If we have been taken pills to manage state of mind, it gonna be a proper horror during rebirth process.

There is no cvs, there is no talking therapist in rebirth process. No loved ones sits next comforting us during the horror show.

We need to figure out what we can bring across the line of physical death, to not let our emotions taking rein in that lonely lonely journey.

Wisdom, faith, acquired skillful habits - they can come with us over death.

I would almost say that one should only come to take refuge with triple Gem, after they exhaust their refuge with modern era psychology & chemists.

It is foolish(albeit rather good hearted) to recommend psychologists unless one is viewed as a lost cause in context of Dhamma practice.

Imagine you are sitting alone in your house, and then all of the sudden someone appears to you uninvited. You might not be a fan of police officers (or psychologists for that matter), but you might seek their help out of fear - unless you become sure that the intruder wishes you no harm, and that trespassing is not his intention. If the deva becomes a frequent visitor, and sometimes he brings along his friends and relatives, then the fear would subside and encountering them becomes a normal - non - event.

Do devas introduce themselves for the first time?

[Jack19990101]

I think you aught not give counter medical advice like go off meds or the bardo will be hell, or don't take Refuge until you go off your meds. That's incorrect advice.

This advice is not in my post, no? I assume that is commentarial towards "exhaust refuge" and "horror"?

[confusedlayman]

Divine eye is not hallucinstion. Because what you see has real impact in outer world. I may b wrong

[Akashad]

I remember once losing consciousness and being in and out of consciousness.There were these golden orbs in my room and the room was bright because of the light coming from them.They soon transformed into these deva like beings.They were standing a bit higher than me as if the ground where they stand is on the level of my knees when i am standing up and they were also at a weird angle slightly skewered.They were trying not to wake me up and were wishing me a "Safe Passage on Earth".

I would have just ignored the whole thing and think it was one of those super lucid dreams.

But then one of them said to the other" the flight will be delayed"...

I woke up the next day and found out my parents flight was delayed.

??

I personally don't think that people who see things due to schizophrenia or hallucination or tripping on LSD or children with imaginary friends are imagining things..

I think they accessing other dimensions.

They are ill in this dimension.

Because those visions disturb their functioning and everyday life but i don't think they are seeing made up stuff.

It's not the universe out there that is expansive.

it's our mind.

It contains so many different worlds and parallel dimensions,future,past etc.

[Radix]

If the meditators was to encounter such beings for the first time, what should he do? How can he be sure that he is not mentally ill?

The advanced meditator really doesn't care about that, duh.