Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

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Maharaja
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Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by Maharaja »

In the Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta (Samyutta Nikaya 22.95), The Buddha compares the following:

“Form is like a lump of foam;
“Pheṇapiṇḍūpamaṁ rūpaṁ,

feeling is like a bubble;
vedanā bubbuḷūpamā;

perception seems like a mirage;
Marīcikūpamā saññā,

choices like a banana tree;
saṅkhārā kadalūpamā;

and consciousness like a magic trick:
Māyūpamañca viññāṇaṁ,


https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/suj ... ript=latin


Is there any explanation in any of the suttas, as to why Form is like a lump of foam? Why feeling is like a bubble? Why perception is like a mirage? Why saṅkhārā is like a banana tree? And why consciousness is like a magic trick?
"භජන්ති සේවන්ති ච කාරණත්ථා
නික්කාරණා දුල්ලභා අජ්ජමිත්තා
අත්තට්ඨපඤ්ඤා අසුචී මනුස්සා
ඒකෝ චරේ කග්ගවිසාණකප්පෝ."

:candle:
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robertk
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by robertk »

Spk notes by Bhikku Bodhi:

note 190: Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for
it
breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be
grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop
of
water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 �ko.tis� of
feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10
million).
As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in
dependence
on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact.�

Spk: Perception is like a mirage (marikaa) in the sense that it is
insubstantial, for one cannot grasp a mirage to drink or bathe or fill a
pitcher. As a mirage deceives the multitude, so does perception, which
entices
people with th idea that the colourful object is beautiful, pleasurable,
and
permanent.

Spk: As a plaintain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many
sheaths,
each with its own characteristic, so the aggregate of volitional
formations is
an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic.�

Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that
it is
insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient
and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person
comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is
different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a
magical illusion.
User13866
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by User13866 »

I think that form is like a bubble because bubbles are feeble and they arise & cease due to transient conditions.

I think that feelings are like foam similarly to how form is like a bubble

Perception as a mirage because perceptions are illusory and empty like dreams, visions or a desert mirage
Verse 170: If a man looks at the world in the same way as one looks at a bubble or a mirage, the King of Death will not find him.
Whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world is called the world in the training of the Noble One. And through what in the world do you perceive the world and conceive the world?

Through the eye in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world. Through the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world.

Whatever in the world through which you perceive the world and conceive the world is called the world in the training of the Noble One.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.116/en/su ... ript=latin
Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.

https://suttacentral.net/mn54/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
Formations are like a banana tree as to the bearing of fruit and fabricating even another banana tree
And what are fabrications? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And why, bhikkhus, do you call them fabrications? ‘They fabricate the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called fabrications.

And what is the conditioned that they fabrications?

They fabricate conditioned form as form;
they fabricate conditioned feeling as feeling;
they fabricate conditioned perception as perception;
they fabricate conditioned fabrications as fabrications;
they fabricate conditioned consciousness as consciousness.

‘They fabricate the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called fabrications.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Consciousness a magic trick because of it's deceptive nature and being tricky to comprehend
“Monks, the ordinary person, [1] unlearned in spiritual knowledge, [2] might grow weary of, might become detached from, might become released from this physical body made up of the four great elements. What is the reason for this? Because, monks, apparent are the increase and the decrease, the taking up and the putting down, [3] of this physical body made up of the four great elements. For that reason, the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, might grow weary, might become detached, might become released.

“But, indeed, that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, [4] the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, not enough to turn away, not enough to become detached, not enough to be released. What is the reason for this? Because for a long time, monks, that ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’ of the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, has been clung to, has been cherished, has been fondled: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’. Because of that, the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, not enough to turn away, not enough to become detached, not enough to be released.

“Better, monks, to let the ordinary person, in all ways unlearned in spiritual knowledge, proceed from the assumption that the self is this physical body made up of the four great elements, rather than mind. [5] What is the reason for this? This physical body, Monks, comprising the four great elements, is seen standing for one rainy season, standing for two rainy seasons,... for three... four... five... ten... twenty... thirty... forty... fifty... standing for a hundred or more rainy seasons.

“But, indeed, that which, monks, is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’, that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases. [6] Just as, monks, a monkey in the mountain-side forests, moving itself, [7] grasps a branch, then releasing that, grasps another, then releasing that, grasps another; even so, indeed, monks, that which is called ‘mind’, or ‘thought’, or ‘consciousness’: that, by night and by day, as other, indeed, arises, as other ceases.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .niza.html
Dhammapada wrote:Far-ranging, solitary,
Incorporeal and hidden
Is the mind.
Those who restrain it
Will be freed from Mara’s bonds.
wenjaforever
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by wenjaforever »

You have to understand that the Buddha is at an entirely different level. He's basically saying everything is an illusion. This is like explaining how a car works to a dog.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
User13866
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by User13866 »

The translation of Assutāva Sutta i posted above is not good. Thanissaro's is better https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
User13866
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by User13866 »

Another thing that could be read into.

Form is explained as a single bubble whereas feeling as foam which is a multitude of conjoined bubbles.

This could be asserted to be because four aggregates [consciousness, perception, formation, feeling] are conjoined whereas form isn't.
Three aggregates are conjoined with consciousness. The aggregate of material quality is not conjoined with consciousness. The aggregate of consciousness should not be said to be, conjoined with consciousness or not conjoined with consciousness. 
https://suttacentral.net/vb1/en/thittil ... ight=false
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It's pretty neat
wenjaforever
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by wenjaforever »

There's even 3 levels of knowledge on how a car works:

• how to drive a car
• how to fix a car
• how to design a car
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:17 pm This could be asserted to be because four aggregates [consciousness, perception, formation, feeling] are conjoined whereas form isn't.
Hence why there is no conscious experience in the cessation of perception & feeling. If they go, so does conciousness.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by mjaviem »

Maharaja wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:30 am ...
Is there any explanation in any of the suttas, as to why Form is like a lump of foam? Why feeling is like a bubble? Why perception is like a mirage? Why saṅkhārā is like a banana tree? And why consciousness is like a magic trick?
Foam, bubbles, mirages, banana trees, and magic tricks are all unreliable, not trust worthy. Form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and cognition are the same. The Buddha is showing anicca here.

I think feelings are transient as bubbles, recognition is tricky as a mirage, fabrications are without a base or without a core like a banana tree, and cognition gives us the truth of things the same as magic tricks.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
justindesilva
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by justindesilva »

:idea:
mjaviem wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:52 pm
Maharaja wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:30 am ...
Is there any explanation in any of the suttas, as to why Form is like a lump of foam? Why feeling is like a bubble? Why perception is like a mirage? Why saṅkhārā is like a banana tree? And why consciousness is like a magic trick?
Foam, bubbles, mirages, banana trees, and magic tricks are all unreliable, not trust worthy. Form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and cognition are the same. The Buddha is showing anicca here.

I think feelings are transient as bubbles, recognition is tricky as a mirage, fabrications are without a base or without a core like a banana tree, and cognition gives us the truth of things the same as magic tricks.
Yes anattalakkanasutta explained the reason
why we are not self by reason of srperate activities of rupa vedana sangna sankara and vingnana where rupa is transformed in to vingnana or consciousness as skanda or masses of energy .
Phena sutta brings this fact a step further or higher where rupa or form are visuals sound or smell . All these rupa from external or bahira loka reach our internal neural system as electrical magnetised energy in wave form and the nature of such rupa is extremely fragile as foam , Foam vanishes in the face of sunlight and heat to make it simple, The transcendental nature of such form on reaching say our physical neural system creeps in to our brain through prasdas or sense bases and transcends as a feeling (a bubble ) , then perceives as a signal or mirrage formed in a desert , Sankara is the fabrication created by our neural system giving us the pattern of the external appearance of form while vingnana is our comparison from our experiential past
This consciousness is only an internal image
of the external image of form and has no core with elements apo tejo vayo patavi ,
pegembara
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by pegembara »

Maharaja wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:30 am
Is there any explanation in any of the suttas, as to why Form is like a lump of foam? Why feeling is like a bubble? Why perception is like a mirage? Why saṅkhārā is like a banana tree? And why consciousness is like a magic trick?
Because all that one experiences is like an illusion, a dream, a magic show, empty.
Now you experience it and then it disappears as if they were not there.
Isn't that why we take pictures or videos to 're-capture' the experience in the 'future'?

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream
The Venerable Mogharaja:

"Twice have I asked Sakka [1] but the Seeing One has not answered me. I have heard a divine sage replies when asked a third time. I do not know the view of the greatly famous Gotama concerning this world, the next world and the Brahma-world with its deities. To him of supreme vision I have come with a question: how should one regard the world so that one is not seen by the King of Death?"

The Lord:

"Look upon the world as empty,[2] Mogharaja, ever mindful; uprooting the view of self you may thus be one who overcomes death. So regarding the world one is not seen by the King of Death."
"..... Suppose, monks a magician or a magician's apprentice should hold a magic-show at the four cross-roads; and a keen-sighted man should see it, ponder over it and reflect on it radically. (1) Even as he sees it, ponders over it and reflects on it radically, he would find it empty; he would find it hollow; he would find it void of essence. What essence, monks, could there be in a magic show?

Even so, monks, whatever consciousness - be it past, future or present, in oneself or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near - a monk sees it, ponders over it and reflects on it radically. And even as he sees it, ponders over it and reflects on it radically, he would find it empty; he would find it hollow; he would find it void of essence. What essence monks, could there be in a consciousness? (2) ......"

viewtopic.php?t=288
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User13866
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:57 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:17 pm This could be asserted to be because four aggregates [consciousness, perception, formation, feeling] are conjoined whereas form isn't.
Hence why there is no conscious experience in the cessation of perception & feeling. If they go, so does conciousness.
You are not using the terminology correctly. You are insisting on describing cessation of a thing as the thing.

You are essentially making a strawman argument.

Nobody is describing the cessation of the 6 classes of consciousness as either of the 6 classes of consciousness.

Nobody is describing the cessation of the 6 classes of perception as either of the 6 classes of perception.

Nobody is describing the cessation of the 6 classes of feeling as either of the 6 classes of feeling.

Nobody is describing the cessation of the 6 classes of contact as either of the 6 classes of contact.

Nobody is describing the cessation of the 6 classes of fabrication in terms of either of the 6 classes of fabrication.

Nobody is describing the cessation of attention to signs as attention to signs.

Nobody is describing the cessation of conditioned as the conditioned.

What you are saying is very obvious, it is a very apparent thing to observe and is an apparent contradiction of the sutta if one takes statements out of the context.

The criticism you raise is the same as "cessation of feeling is described as pleasure." And this is adressed in the texts. You say cessation of consciousnes is described as consciousness, which is the same criticism.

The truth is that you are very sloppy.

I am not going to explain it again, it's burdensome at this point because you are just saying the same thing over & over.
blightmaster
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by blightmaster »

Vedana is the nervous system (5 senses). The way the mental aspect communicates with rupa, the physical aspect.

Sanna is also called instinct. The lower part of sankhara (sentient mind). It is found on animals and petas. Some people are also semi sentient.
you're not a shape shifter, you're a mindless ghoul in previous life and you will fall again • those who draw the sword die by the sword, but oh wait you're too lame to even use a sword
Ontheway
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Re: Five Aggregates - Pheṇapiṇḍūpama sutta Explaination

Post by Ontheway »

Vedana is not nervous system. Nervous system made up of neurones is still under Rupa category. Vedana should be understood as what Buddha taught: feelings.

Three kinds of feeling: Sukha, Dukkha, Adukkhamasukha

Saññā is not instinct. It is perception. It is not a lower part of Sankhara. Perceiving upon the contact of three factors, eg: eye faculty, visible object and the eye consciousness arises.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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