Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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Lal
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Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

Over 100 suttas in SN 12 describe various aspects of Paṭicca Samuppāda.

1. English translations of all these suttas translate “viññāṇa “ as “consciousness.” In the uddesa version of Paṭicca Samuppāda, it is stated that “Avijjā paccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā; saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ.” That means “viññāṇa” arises due to “avijjā.”

2. Many of those suttas also discuss “viññāṇa nirodha” that is reached at the Arahant stage, with the “complete cessation of avijjā.”

3. See the first sutta in SN 12, “Paṭi­c­ca­samu­p­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)”: SN 12.1: https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/suja ... =latin#2.1
- I have pointed to marker 2.1, where the verses of #1 are stated.
- At marker 3.1 starts the reverse Paṭicca Samuppāda process, which leads to the “cessation of all future suffering” via the cessation of bhava and jāti (rebirth.)

4. Now, all Arahants (and the Buddha) would have removed avijjā (cessation of ignorance of the Four Noble Truths.)
- Did the Buddha lose “viññāṇa” (“viññāṇa nirodha” in #2, i.e., at marker 3.1 in the sutta). Yes. The sutta (and many other suttas) clearly state that.
- Does that mean the Buddha lost consciousness upon attaining Buddhahood?
- That is the contradiction of translating “viññāṇa “ as “consciousness” regardless of the context.

5. It is time to remove such contradictions from translations. Those translators need to realize that there are many types of “viññāṇa.”

6. The above contradiction led to many endless debates in discussion forums. See a recent such discussion at “Do Arhats experience contact with their sixfold sense media? What about vedanā?” viewtopic.php?p=655293#p655293
santa100
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by santa100 »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:23 pm 4. Now, all Arahants (and the Buddha) would have removed avijjā (cessation of ignorance of the Four Noble Truths.)
- Did the Buddha lose “viññāṇa” (“viññāṇa nirodha” in #2, i.e., at marker 3.1 in the sutta). Yes. The sutta (and many other suttas) clearly state that.
- Does that mean the Buddha lost consciousness upon attaining Buddhahood?
- That is the contradiction of translating “viññāṇa “ as “consciousness” regardless of the context.
There's never a contradiction if one follows DO's traditional 3-life interpretation ( ie. past-life => [ignorance, volitional formation], current-life => [consciousness ... becoming], future-life => [birth, aging-death] ). So, with the ending of ignorance, it means there won't be future arising of consciousness in any subsequent lives. It doesn't mean the Buddha all of a sudden lost all of his consciousness and feeling right after attaining Buddhahood in His current life.
User13866
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Vinnana is generally taught as literally close to 'divided knowing'.

In russian language there is word 'сознание' in latin alphbet it's 'soznanie' where 'znanie' means knowledge and the prefix 'so' is from the root in 'sovmestnostj' which means literally togetherness derived from 'together with in a place' denoting a plurality.

Therefore if vinnana is a 'divided knowing' the 'soznanie' has the same semantics and analogical etymology.

Similarly latin has 'conscientia' which is 'con+scientia' meaning "privity of knowledge" or "with-knowledge".

This isn't surprising because protoslavic, latin and indoaryan languages have the same indoeuropean root.

Consciousness is derived from the Latin and is therefore an excellent translation because the word has retained much of it's indoeuropean semantic structure which is the same structure used by the indoaryans.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:23 pm
- Did the Buddha lose “viññāṇa” (“viññāṇa nirodha” in #2, i.e., at marker 3.1 in the sutta). Yes. The sutta (and many other suttas) clearly state that.
- Does that mean the Buddha lost consciousness upon attaining Buddhahood?
- That is the contradiction of translating “viññāṇa “ as “consciousness” regardless of the context.
This is a problem that arises due to your pinning down of Tathagata as a truth & reality.
What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When you realize that you can't pin down neither Bodhisatta nor Tathagata as a truth & reality then the question of whether Tathagata loses consciousness in attaining vinnananirodha won't arise for you.
Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha."
Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

the question of whether Tathagata loses consciousness in attaining vinnananirodha won't arise for you.
It is not a question of WHETHER the Tathagata loses consciousness.
- The translator SAYS he will lose consciousness.
- “Paṭi­c­ca­samu­p­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)”:"When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease.When choices cease, consciousness ceases.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/suja ... =latin#3.1

Please stay focused.
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cappuccino
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:56 pm Please stay focused.
Lost in translation
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Sujato is misguided


He thinks Nirvana is not consciousness
Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

It is not only Bhikkhu Sujato.

Most translators translate "viññāṇa" as "consciousness" EVERYWHERE the word viññāṇa appears in a sutta.
- See, for example, the same sutta translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/bodh ... ight=false
Bundokji
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Bundokji »

How should viññāṇa be translated in order to eliminate the perceived contradiction?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Pulsar
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Pulsar »

cappuccino wrote
Sujato is misguided
He thinks Nirvana is not consciousness
Sujato is clearly not misguided. The word consciousness when used out of context,
leads to confusion.
Consciousness that gets planted here and there, that of the puthujjana, is laden with defilements. Arahant does not have a consciousness that gets planted anywhere. He is free of asava.
That does not mean he is unconscious.
As OP says when the word consciousness is used randomly without an understanding of how suffering is originated, it clearly leads to more suffering.
In the earliest Buddhism before the sectarianism began, there was vinnana (Consciousness that is bifurcated into object and subject) and jhana, the mode of thinking where consciousness is not bifurcated.
In the arahant's mode of thinking there is no identification, no bifurcation.
According to Dr. Bucknell many suttas were written hundreds of years (2-5) after the Buddha.

Suttas in the Parayanavagga and Atthakavaga (earliest) say Arahant is free of the aggregates.
However some suttas in the canon, oppose this teaching.
With love :candle:
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cappuccino
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:40 pm It is not only Bhikkhu Sujato.

Most translators translate "viññāṇa" as "consciousness" EVERYWHERE
Like the word art, the term is very abused


There is a lot of confusion


You have to discern for yourself
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Viññāṇa doesn’t mean “divided knowing”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by mjaviem »

Viññana is not medical consciousness. Viññana, sañña, and vedanā are conjoined. You all have read me say vedanā means experience, sensation. The Teachings are about the human experience of suffering. They are not about biological issues. Viññana is conjoined and is the cognition and awareness of that experience. Arahant abides without human experience and without cognition of any of such experience. "Bliss of not feeling anything". Neurons still trigger neurosignals but this is not the point. The point is that there's no experience like the experience of pain, there's only pain but this is just that, nothing construed from it, only dhattus, only nibbana. Gosh if only one person could understand what I'm saying. They don't need to agree with me but simply get what I'm saying. Thank you
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:08 pm Viññana is not medical consciousness. Viññana, sañña, and vedanā are conjoined. You all have read me say vedanā means experience, sensation. The Teachings are about the human experience of suffering. They are not about biological issues. Viññana is conjoined and is the cognition and awareness of that experience. Arahant abides without human experience and without cognition of any of such experience. "Bliss of not feeling anything". Neurons still trigger neurosignals but this is not the point. The point is that there's no experience like the experience of pain, there's only pain but this is just that, nothing construed from it, only dhattus, only nibbana. Gosh if only one person could understand what I'm saying. They don't need to agree with me but simply get what I'm saying. Thank you
As far as I'm aware no Buddhist before has considered viññana, sañña, and vedanā to be "biological issues".
Gosh if only one person could understand what I'm saying. They don't need to agree with me but simply get what I'm saying. Thank you
The problem is that what you say is nonsensical. For example, you say there is no experience of pain there is just pain. This is a nonsensical statement.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:45 pm ... This is a nonsensical statement.
Do you think suchness or thusness is nonsensical?

And everyone is talking about biology when speaking about cessation of consciousness and cessation of feeling and cessation of perception They say its not possible for the Arahant because they think of biological functions rather than human experience
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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