Nowhere does anybody say that. Breaking into speech is not the same as vv.DeadBuddha wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:33 am Hello,
Thank you for your answer.
Where does it explain that verbal discursive thoughts are non-existent during the first jhâna?* speech ceases in the 1st jhana
in 36.11First you vitakketvā vicāretvā, then you break into speech. That’s why vitakkavicārā are verbal formations.
Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.6/en/suja ... ript=latin
For someone who has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
Paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti.
For someone who has attained the second jhāna, the vitakkavicārā have ceased.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.11/en/suj ... ript=latin
As i understand the articulate utterance is a reference to speech there, not a reference to vv.Points of Controversy wrote:Pubbaseliya: Is it wrong to say that there is articulate utterance on the part of one who has entered Jhāna?
Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that initial and sustained application of mind was vocal activity? And does not such application belong to one in first Jhāna? Surely then my proposition is true.
Theravādin: Granting that you quote correctly, and that one in first Jhāna is engaged in such application, I say, you have just denied that anyone attaining Jhāna by any of the eight artifices does make articulate utterance. How then can you also affirm your proposition?
Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that speech arises from initial application or directing of thought? And does not such movement of thought belong to one in first Jhāna?
Theravādin: That is no good reason. The Exalted One also said that speech is caused by perception. Now one in second, third, or fourth Jhāna has perception, but we know that he no longer applies or sustains thought. So also for the four more abstract Jhāna states
https://suttacentral.net/kv2.5/en/aung- ... ight=false
As to hearing in jhana i've written another post in this thread already.Kumara Bikkhu explains why the fact that "sound is a thorn for the first jhana" does not mean that sound is non-existent in the first jhana
That being said Kumara Bhikkhu has no need to argue with that interpretation because i likened sound being a thorn to the first jhana as the liking of a melodic recitation is a thorn in recitation and it can be inferred that even tho melodic recitation breaks the samadhi one can still do it.