Population control

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thepea
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Population control

Post by thepea »

In the buddhas time what was the system of governance/law and order for layman?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Population control

Post by Mahabrahma »

Here is some basic information:
In order to analyze the political thought of Buddha, it is pivotal to understand the state structure at the time of Buddha.

Political System, here is to be understood as a social institution dealing with the governance of the state and its relationship with the people.

India in the 6th century BCE witness for the rise of large states with towns as the base of operations. The strong allegiance to the territory led to the development of Jana padas which replaced the earlier allegiance to the Jana(tribe). In later Vedic times, the Vidhata completely disappeared. The Sabha and Samiti continued to hold the ground, but their character changed. Women were no longer permitted to sit in the Sabha, and it was now dominated by Brahmanas.

The formation of wider kingdoms made the king more powerful. Tribal authority tended to become territorial. The term Rashtra, which indicates territory, first appears in this period. The King performed the rajasuya sacrifice, which was supposed to confer supreme power to him. He performed the Ashvamedha, which meant unquestioned control over an area in which the royal house ran uninterrupted. He also performed the Vajapeya or the chariot race, in which the royal chariot was made to win the race against his kinsmen. During this period collection of taxes and tributes began and officer of the king who collected them was called sangrihitri.

Even in later Vedic times, the king did not possess a standing army. Tribal units were mustered in times of war, and, according to one ritual for success in war, the king had to eat along with his people from the same plate. The Pali Buddhist text Anguttara Nikaya refers to the existence of 16 Mahajanapadas and republics during the age of Buddha. They were Kasi, Kosala, Anga, Magadha, Vajji, Malla, Chedi, Vatsa, Kuru, Panchala, Matcha, Surasena, Assaka, Avanti, Gandhara and Kamboja. During the age of Buddha, the state was in the process of transforming itself from a Mahajanpada to an imperial state. Besides Mahajanapadas, there was even a democratic autonomous republic with substantial powers of the assemblies. They were the Sakyas of Kapilavatthu or Kapilavastu, The Bhaggs of Sumsumagiri, The Bulis of Allakappa The Kalamas of kesaputta, The Koliyas of Ramagana, The Mallas of Pava, The Mallas of kusinara, The Moriya's of Pipphalivana, The Videhas of Mithila and The Licchavis of Vaisali The Vajjans. (Subhash Kashyap).

Thapar writes that “The republics had emerged from the Vedic tribes and retained much more tribal traditions than did the monarchies. In the transition from tribe to republics, they lost the essential democratic pattern of the tribe but retained the idea of government through an assembly representing the tribe.

The rise of the Magadhan empire under the Haryanka dynasty brought the gradual end of these republics. Bimbisara, the founder of the Haryanka dynasty was a contemporary of Buddha.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

I appreciate that post but honestly I’ve read it three times and I’m not grasping how the system function back then.
Was it powerful tribes in areas like gang dominance and they spoke to the king of the area?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Population control

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It seems like the local population supported the King, correct? The King would be supported by the local populace, and that was because they felt He had the right to rule, as a form of social control. The same idea comes in with the Brahmins. The populace believed that the Brahmins should be in control of the social order, even though it was subjugative, because of long passed down traditions. Both Brahminism and Monarchy in the sixth century BCE is what Buddha came to reform, as well as show a clear Path to Enlightenment for all. Namo Buddhaya.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:10 am It seems like the local population supported the King, correct? The King would be supported by the local populace, and that was because they felt He had the right to rule, as a form of social control. The same idea comes in with the Brahmins. The populace believed that the Brahmins should be in control of the social order, even though it was subjugative, because of long passed down traditions. Both Brahminism and Monarchy in the sixth century BCE is what Buddha came to reform, as well as show a clear Path to Enlightenment for all. Namo Buddhaya.
So by king are we talking about buddhas father?
His father was the ruler and all subjects felt he had the right to rule them?
And Buddha later put forward the vinyana as an alternate form of rule?
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Re: Population control

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thepea wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:37 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:10 am It seems like the local population supported the King, correct? The King would be supported by the local populace, and that was because they felt He had the right to rule, as a form of social control. The same idea comes in with the Brahmins. The populace believed that the Brahmins should be in control of the social order, even though it was subjugative, because of long passed down traditions. Both Brahminism and Monarchy in the sixth century BCE is what Buddha came to reform, as well as show a clear Path to Enlightenment for all. Namo Buddhaya.
So by king are we talking about buddhas father?
His father was the ruler and all subjects felt he had the right to rule them?
And Buddha later put forward the vinyana as an alternate form of rule?
Buddha created a Sangha. And there were many Kings in the area, similar to Buddha's father. Buddha helped reform them, taught them, and helped stop classism and animal slaughter with His philosophy and the retinue of His monks.

The King had previously maintained rule by offering Vedic Sacrifices. In the future the Kings often maintained rule by the Saintliness of spreading the Dhamma, like Ashoka and the Kings of Buddha's times who were converted to Buddhism.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:02 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:37 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:10 am It seems like the local population supported the King, correct? The King would be supported by the local populace, and that was because they felt He had the right to rule, as a form of social control. The same idea comes in with the Brahmins. The populace believed that the Brahmins should be in control of the social order, even though it was subjugative, because of long passed down traditions. Both Brahminism and Monarchy in the sixth century BCE is what Buddha came to reform, as well as show a clear Path to Enlightenment for all. Namo Buddhaya.
So by king are we talking about buddhas father?
His father was the ruler and all subjects felt he had the right to rule them?
And Buddha later put forward the vinyana as an alternate form of rule?
Buddha created a Sangha. And there were many Kings in the area, similar to Buddha's father. Buddha helped reform them, taught them, and helped stop classism and animal slaughter with His philosophy and the retinue of His monks.

The King had previously maintained rule by offering Vedic Sacrifices. In the future the Kings often maintained rule by the Saintliness of spreading the Dhamma, like Ashoka and the Kings of Buddha's times who were converted to Buddhism.
That’s the part that’s confusing to me. “There were many kings.” And yes it seems there was a caste system in place.
So there was not a ruling king but rather a bunch of kings ruling different lands?
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Re: Population control

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From what I understand different Kings were ruling over different provinces. The system of social order allowed for a King. The Varna-Ashram System of Society consisted of Sudras (laborers and workers), Vaishas (cow protectors and farmers), Ksatriyas (administrative classes and warrior classes), and Brahmanas (the priestly order). Above all those classes were the heads of Society, the Sanyassis, the Vedic Monks who left home and family to make their business preaching the Vedas and only that. This system was disintegrating by Buddha's time, but it allowed for Kings to be in the Ksatriya class, the Administrative and Warrior class to rule Society. Buddha came to reform these classes, and often to help people move past them. Namaste.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:10 pm From what I understand different Kings were ruling over different provinces. The system of social order allowed for a King. The Varna-Ashram System of Society consisted of Sudras (laborers and workers), Vaishas (cow protectors and farmers), Ksatriyas (administrative classes and warrior classes), and Brahmanas (the priestly order). Above all those classes were the heads of Society, the Sanyassis, the Vedic Monks who left home and family to make their business preaching the Vedas and only that. This system was disintegrating by Buddha's time, but it allowed for Kings to be in the Ksatriya class, the Administrative and Warrior class to rule Society. Buddha came to reform these classes, and often to help people move past them. Namaste.
Did Buddha get permission to create community of monastics?
Or did he just do it?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Population control

Post by Mahabrahma »

thepea wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:27 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:10 pm From what I understand different Kings were ruling over different provinces. The system of social order allowed for a King. The Varna-Ashram System of Society consisted of Sudras (laborers and workers), Vaishas (cow protectors and farmers), Ksatriyas (administrative classes and warrior classes), and Brahmanas (the priestly order). Above all those classes were the heads of Society, the Sanyassis, the Vedic Monks who left home and family to make their business preaching the Vedas and only that. This system was disintegrating by Buddha's time, but it allowed for Kings to be in the Ksatriya class, the Administrative and Warrior class to rule Society. Buddha came to reform these classes, and often to help people move past them. Namaste.
Did Buddha get permission to create community of monastics?
Or did he just do it?
He didn't even get permission to leave home. He had to rush out on a horse in night time. But he created his monastic order among forest Dwellers, then it's equal to everyone social order was popular and powerful enough to spread to towns and Kingdoms alike. As much as Ancient India was full of a class system back then, they were highly receptive of ascetic Spiritual Life, and the Dhamma, because it immediately made sense...
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:53 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:27 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:10 pm From what I understand different Kings were ruling over different provinces. The system of social order allowed for a King. The Varna-Ashram System of Society consisted of Sudras (laborers and workers), Vaishas (cow protectors and farmers), Ksatriyas (administrative classes and warrior classes), and Brahmanas (the priestly order). Above all those classes were the heads of Society, the Sanyassis, the Vedic Monks who left home and family to make their business preaching the Vedas and only that. This system was disintegrating by Buddha's time, but it allowed for Kings to be in the Ksatriya class, the Administrative and Warrior class to rule Society. Buddha came to reform these classes, and often to help people move past them. Namaste.
Did Buddha get permission to create community of monastics?
Or did he just do it?
He didn't even get permission to leave home. He had to rush out on a horse in night time. But he created his monastic order among forest Dwellers, then it's equal to everyone social order was popular and powerful enough to spread to towns and Kingdoms alike. As much as Ancient India was full of a class system back then, they were highly receptive of ascetic Spiritual Life, and the Dhamma, because it immediately made sense...
But this has since been made illegal, hasn’t it?
You cannot reside in the public forest as an ascetic in today’s society, can you?
If this is now illegal when was this made law?
Or was it illegal and Buddha could only spend x amount of time legally in a public location before being forced to move along?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Population control

Post by Mahabrahma »

Indian saints were always populating the forest. It's not illegal even in modern times in those countries which have forest Sanghas and monasteries. Look up even Chinese Buddhist hermits.

Take a look at this documentary:



The world is still largely and freely populated by forests and people can dwell in them.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:35 pm Indian saints were always populating the forest. It's not illegal even in modern times in those countries which have forest Sanghas and monasteries. Look up even Chinese Buddhist hermits.

Take a look at this documentary:



The world is still largely and freely populated by forests and people can dwell in them.
But only if integrated into a registered corporation(monastic sangha) otherwise it is now against the law to simply park yourself under a tree and beg for your meals. Correct?
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Re: Population control

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The leaders of those big Indoctrinated Societies still come to Mansions of millionaires after talking about their new book, to get them as their followers so they can build new Temples. I see this on "Hinduism." In Christianity they're always begging on TV for donations, building gigantic Stadium Churches. There's a new way to beg, and even in Buddhism there's a new way to be a monk. However, if you aren't part of some kind of Sangha it is possible to lose your Meditational practice after a few months as the waves of life sweep you away. So understand the importance of being around fellow Practitioners. It's important to find a Sangha. Begging is easy, but to do it with more ownership of your respect, it's better to do it around people who will welcome you both in a city and in a Temple. However, when I lived in a tree to prevent it from being cut down, learning things about Buddhism, we would get an overflow of food from the city, because many supported our efforts to save trees in our liberal town.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
thepea
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Population control

Post by thepea »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:29 pm The leaders of those big Indoctrinated Societies still come to Mansions of millionaires after talking about their new book, to get them as their followers so they can build new Temples. I see this on "Hinduism." In Christianity they're always begging on TV for donations, building gigantic Stadium Churches. There's a new way to beg, and even in Buddhism there's a new way to be a monk. However, if you aren't part of some kind of Sangha it is possible to lose your Meditational practice after a few months as the waves of life sweep you away. So understand the importance of being around fellow Practitioners. It's important to find a Sangha. Begging is easy, but to do it with more ownership of your respect, it's better to do it around people who will welcome you both in a city and in a Temple. However, when I lived in a tree to prevent it from being cut down, learning things about Buddhism, we would get an overflow of food from the city, because many supported our efforts to save trees in our liberal town.
Your straying from the point. I’m interested in knowing if in buddhas time a man could simply park himself under a tree in forest as Buddha did and beg for their meals, or is this illegal now unless part of a registered corporation(sangha).
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