Revolution

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Revolution

Post by JamesTheGiant »

The Buddha worked closely with kings, and advised them on policy decisions from time to time, if i remember correctly. He was several king's good friend and teacher.
He worked within the political system and obeyed the laws of the nation.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Revolution

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:11 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:44 am
thepea wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:04 am

It does seem a forcible change in direction as I mentioned to goof, you must initiate restraint or force when initially observing precepts. The dhamma is a revolution(forced change of mental habits) then shifts towards an evolution.
No, you are talking about two different uses of the term revolution. In your original post there is "the forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favour of a new system". This is a political phenomenon, like the French Revolution of 1789 onwards, or the Russian Revolution of 1917.

In addition to this, we can talk about something being "revolutionary" in the sense of being radically different from what went before. For example, we can talk of Stravinsky as being a revolutionary composer, or the "Copernican revolution" in cosmology, or the internet being a revolution in communication. This is a different use of the term, as none of these involved a forcible change in government.

The Buddha's teachings may have been "revolutionary" in this second sense, but he didn't start what you term "a peaceful revolution against the government of his time".

If you are unable or unwilling to see this distinction in usage, then it really isn't worth pursuing this.
Even your example of the musician being radical with their music is no different to how term is defined. There are always groups or gangs that control and regulate basically everything we have and do. To suggest an abrupt change of direction is revolution. The Buddha very much fits this description as he noticed the caste system when leaving the confines of his kingdom and witnessing the extreme wealth a privilege some have and the extreme poverty of others lower down the social ladder. He even practiced this way looking for escape through ascetic practices.
Society is still very much a caste system and Buddha is/was the revolutionary who offers us a revolutionary new way of living vs the old competing to climb the socio/political ladder of privilege. Buddha seems very much a leader of this revolution which goes against the societal norm.
This is more of your usual desperate lumpen equivocation, so I won't be addressing it, thanks.
thepea
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Re: Revolution

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:26 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:11 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:44 am

No, you are talking about two different uses of the term revolution. In your original post there is "the forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favour of a new system". This is a political phenomenon, like the French Revolution of 1789 onwards, or the Russian Revolution of 1917.

In addition to this, we can talk about something being "revolutionary" in the sense of being radically different from what went before. For example, we can talk of Stravinsky as being a revolutionary composer, or the "Copernican revolution" in cosmology, or the internet being a revolution in communication. This is a different use of the term, as none of these involved a forcible change in government.

The Buddha's teachings may have been "revolutionary" in this second sense, but he didn't start what you term "a peaceful revolution against the government of his time".

If you are unable or unwilling to see this distinction in usage, then it really isn't worth pursuing this.
Even your example of the musician being radical with their music is no different to how term is defined. There are always groups or gangs that control and regulate basically everything we have and do. To suggest an abrupt change of direction is revolution. The Buddha very much fits this description as he noticed the caste system when leaving the confines of his kingdom and witnessing the extreme wealth a privilege some have and the extreme poverty of others lower down the social ladder. He even practiced this way looking for escape through ascetic practices.
Society is still very much a caste system and Buddha is/was the revolutionary who offers us a revolutionary new way of living vs the old competing to climb the socio/political ladder of privilege. Buddha seems very much a leader of this revolution which goes against the societal norm.
This is more of your usual desperate lumpen equivocation, so I won't be addressing it, thanks.
I think you think revolution and see guns and violence as people burn down parliament building to overthrow a government. But isn’t that merely becoming that which you dislike about the government?
Buddha discovered a revolutionary way of accomplishing revolution without violence and minimal dependence upon others. He found a way to utterly destroy the caste system within and created training for others to do similar. Ultimately as a byproduct of change within you change or revolutionize the world externally.
Does this seem agreeable?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Revolution

Post by Mahabrahma »

Buddha did teach people how to become perfect Brahmins at times though, instead of Brahmins in name only:
(5) At one time, Janussoni came into the presence of the World-Honored One and said, “World-Honored One, is an offering made to a brahmin with the three knowledges a true offering?” The Buddha asked, “What is the nature of the three knowledges?” The brahmin answered, “O World-Honored One, the brahmin of the three knowledges is well versed in the three Vedas: the Rgveda, the Samaveda, and the Yajurveda. On both his father’s and his mother’s side for as far back as seven generations, there must not be a single case where the family lineage has been stained. He must never be the object of derision; his family name must be honorable and his livelihood pure. He must memorize the sacred books and incantations and be well versed in the terminology, rituals, liturgy, interpretations, stories, and accounts contained in the Vedas. He must be clear with regard to the origin of words and grammar. Then, after having learned the lokayata philosophy of materialism, and after having mastered knowledge of the marks of a great sage, this brahmin may well be called a brahmin of the three knowledges.”

The Buddha then stated, “0 brahmin, it is true that this is one version of the three knowledges, but it is not so when seen from the standpoint of the true teachings.” To this the brahmin asked, “O World-Honored One, what then are the true three knowledges?” The Buddha then gave him the following teaching: “0 brahmin, listen carefully to my teaching. When my disciple, pursuing the way to purity, first abandons desire and impurity, then there may still be remnants of the workings of the mind that questions and reasons, he enters the first level of concentration and experiences joy and happiness. At the second level of concentration, he enjoys the joy and happiness coming from meditation after abandoning questioning and reasoning. Advancing and leaving this joy and happiness, he resides in thoughts that are unbiased. Enjoying the happiness of right mind and right thought, he enters into the third level of concentration. Moving ahead, freed from thoughts of happiness and unhappiness, of joy and anxiety, he enters into the fourth concentration, which is the state of mind that is pure and undisturbed, transcending all suffering and pleasure.

“In this state the mind of my disciple is quiescent and clear, free of all wants and desires. His mind is not only clear but also freed of calculation; it is ready to function at all times and is firm and never to be upset by others. And when his mind is directed toward things of the past, then the happenings of the past, from one past life to a million past lives and beyond that can be brought to mind. Matters such as his names and family lineages during past lives are remembered; moreover his professions, experiences, and life spans, even down to their minor characteristics, are clearly recollected. It is at this stage that he acquires the power of knowing his own and others’ past lives, whereby ignorance is destroyed, darkness is dispelled, and light comes into being.

“Next, he will direct his mind toward knowing the births and deaths of other people. With divine eyes that transcend human sight, he is now able to discern that the noble and the base, the beautiful and the ugly, the happy and the unhappy, all appear and disappear according to their actions. Some commit evil with their bodies, mouths, and minds, slander the sages, and harbor impure thoughts. Because of these actions, they fall into the realms of hellish suffering. Others perform good acts with their bodies, mouths, and minds; they refrain from slandering the sages and have right attitudes and understanding. By virtue of their good actions, they are born in the realm of purity. This second wisdom is called knowing others’ thoughts. In it ignorance is destroyed, darkness is dispelled, and light comes into being.

“At the next stage, he directs his mind toward the extinction of all defilements. He clearly perceives the reality of suffering, the cause of suffering, the removal of suffering, and the way to the removal of suffering.

“Likewise, he clearly perceives what is defilement, what is the cause of defilement, what is the extinction of defilement, and what is the way to the extinction of defilement. Now, upon having realized this, his mind is freed from the defilement arising from human desires, the defilement arising from existence itself, and the defilement arising from human blindness. Thus, he gains the awareness that he has been freed from these bondages. There arises in him the knowledge that the life of delusion has come to an end; that the pure practices have been completed; that what had to be accomplished has been accomplished; and that he will never again experience birth in delusion. This is the third wisdom, called the extinction of defilements, whereby ignorance is destroyed, darkness is dispelled, and light comes into being. O brahmin, by the expression ‘brahmin of the three knowledges’ we mean a person who possesses these three wisdoms.”

To these instructions, the brahmin replied that, when comparing the three knowledges he had spoken of before with those of the Buddha, he realized that they were inferior, not even one-sixteenth as valuable. And he praised the superiority of the Buddha’s teachings.
https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/budd ... hardcover/
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Goofaholix »

thepea wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:56 pm
Goofaholix wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:02 pm It is not aa forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favor of a new system.
Yes it is , at the beginning. You observe precepts and you must use restraint. You have revolution then evolution.
While some governments have been overthrown since I started observing the precepts I'm confident there is not a causal relationship. You want a different word, evolution is a good start.

Revolutionary has the additional meaning that you are probably fishing for...

revo·lu·tion·ary
[rɛvəˈluːʃ(ə)n(ə)ri]
ADJECTIVE
involving or causing a complete or dramatic change:
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Radix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:15 pm Was Buddha with the turning of the wheel of dhamma starting a peaceful revolution against the government of his time.
Presumably the aim of Dhamma practice is not a pleasant life lived in a worldly manner, in the pursuit of money, family, etc.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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Radix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:09 pm Buddha discovered a revolutionary way of accomplishing revolution without violence and minimal dependence upon others. He found a way to utterly destroy the caste system within and created training for others to do similar. Ultimately as a byproduct of change within you change or revolutionize the world externally.
Does this seem agreeable?
It's agreeable to someone whose aim is a good life (with enough money, health, family, etc.) and a good rebirth.

Presumably the aim of Dhamma practice is to end rebirth altogether.

Presumably a practitioner of the Dhamma sees life as it is usually lived (ie. devoted to the pursuit of money, health, family etc.) as a pointless, hopeless project.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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Radix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:26 pm This is more of your usual desperate lumpen equivocation, so I won't be addressing it, thanks.
Looked it up, just in case:
lumpen
Definitions from Oxford Languages
adjective
1.
(in Marxist contexts) uninterested in revolutionary advancement.
"the lumpen public is enveloped in a culture of dependency"
2.
BRITISH
lumpy and misshapen; ugly and ponderous.
"her own body was lumpen and awkward"
Lol.

The lumpenproletariat doesn't understand the concept of lumpenproletariat. How ironic.

Oddly enough, some white trash understand what white trash is.

Irony 3 : Radix 0
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
thepea
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Re: Revolution

Post by thepea »

Radix wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:56 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:09 pm Buddha discovered a revolutionary way of accomplishing revolution without violence and minimal dependence upon others. He found a way to utterly destroy the caste system within and created training for others to do similar. Ultimately as a byproduct of change within you change or revolutionize the world externally.
Does this seem agreeable?
It's agreeable to someone whose aim is a good life (with enough money, health, family, etc.) and a good rebirth.

Presumably the aim of Dhamma practice is to end rebirth altogether.

Presumably a practitioner of the Dhamma sees life as it is usually lived (ie. devoted to the pursuit of money, health, family etc.) as a pointless, hopeless project.
This is my point... Buddha revolted against the caste system and took up the middle path. He didn’t use protest or guns or violence, he found a less extreme way of revolution against this. Initially after living the life of privilege he gravitated to ascetic practice which he also found to be a “pointless hopeless project”. He then adopted the middle way.
thepea
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Re: Revolution

Post by thepea »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:57 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:56 pm
Goofaholix wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:02 pm It is not aa forcible overthrow of a government or social order, in favor of a new system.
Yes it is , at the beginning. You observe precepts and you must use restraint. You have revolution then evolution.
While some governments have been overthrown since I started observing the precepts I'm confident there is not a causal relationship. You want a different word, evolution is a good start.

Revolutionary has the additional meaning that you are probably fishing for...

revo·lu·tion·ary
[rɛvəˈluːʃ(ə)n(ə)ri]
ADJECTIVE
involving or causing a complete or dramatic change:
Well Buddha started the wheel turning which is revolution not only revolutionary.
It would seem the Buddha would view the government as foolish, and he found a new way to co-exist.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Goofaholix »

thepea wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 am
Well Buddha started the wheel turning which is revolution
Its a metaphor, and i dont see the point in trying to establish a connection via two different meanibgs of an english word.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Radix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:14 am This is my point... Buddha revolted against the caste system and took up the middle path. He didn’t use protest or guns or violence, he found a less extreme way of revolution against this. Initially after living the life of privilege he gravitated to ascetic practice which he also found to be a “pointless hopeless project”. He then adopted the middle way.
No, what I said isn't your point. You're still not getting what some people have been trying to tell you.

Whether you work in a factory, or are a self-made man, an enterpreneur, a trust fund kid, a gold digger, or a beggar: as long as your pursuits are about getting money, status, family, in short, the worldly life, you're involved in the pointless, hopeless project of continous rebirth.
This is in contrast with the pursuit of making an end to rebirth altogether.

What you've been propagating is McDharma, a secular pursuit whose aim is incompatible with the Dhamma.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
thepea
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Re: Revolution

Post by thepea »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:27 am
thepea wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 am
Well Buddha started the wheel turning which is revolution
Its a metaphor, and i dont see the point in trying to establish a connection via two different meanibgs of an english word.
Buddha walked away from the system of government in place at his time. Any of societies things that could be used to grip him, he let go of.
Money-gone, no taxes can be paid, no banking can be supported, no companies or private business could be supported.
House-gone, lived under a tree, no grass to cut or yard to tend to, no tools needed.
No clothes- used thrown away rags.
No food production- no land required, no kings taxes to be paid, begging.
No family- abandoning his wife and child, cutting loose of any and all property, nobody to be responsible for.

Buddha through his observation in the palace and outside of the protected gates saw this cyclical cycle of society which grips an individual, pulls them in. One could call this the grip of mara, and Buddha severed maras physical grip as much as possible in order to create an environment to then look at the mental grip. The abrupt change is the revolution. By doing so and seeing the end of suffering through noble 8-fold path he in essence began a revolution against mara, he set up the sangha where by monastics took up similar lifestyles of stepping away from the governing clans rule.

Something has changed over the years with the sangha Buddha created. It’s become registered with the local clans. Monasteries created under licences and taxes paid by supporting layman. Monesteries are subject to clan laws and if not obeyed doors shut. This seems the opposite of what Buddha created/discovered.
Even as born now individuals are registered and clan propery as a future taxpayer. This revolution away from the clans grip started by Buddha seems to have been recognized by mara and consumed by mara. The systems now seem to operate as capture now vs as independent in origin.
Is this the demise of dhamma?
I thought dhamma was to fall from panna to samadhi to morality?
thepea
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Re: Revolution

Post by thepea »

Radix wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:53 am
thepea wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:14 am This is my point... Buddha revolted against the caste system and took up the middle path. He didn’t use protest or guns or violence, he found a less extreme way of revolution against this. Initially after living the life of privilege he gravitated to ascetic practice which he also found to be a “pointless hopeless project”. He then adopted the middle way.
No, what I said isn't your point. You're still not getting what some people have been trying to tell you.

Whether you work in a factory, or are a self-made man, an enterpreneur, a trust fund kid, a gold digger, or a beggar: as long as your pursuits are about getting money, status, family, in short, the worldly life, you're involved in the pointless, hopeless project of continous rebirth.
This is in contrast with the pursuit of making an end to rebirth altogether.

What you've been propagating is McDharma, a secular pursuit whose aim is incompatible with the Dhamma.
This is exactly what I’m saying Buddha revolted against. The system(big brother) the corporate ladder. Striving for more wealth, a higher position up the ladder. It’s the deal with the devil(mara). You become a doctor and with this doctorate you are certified and you have privileges and higher status as a result. You may have ability to prescribe drugs, etc... but you make a trade for this certification. The trade is your freedom(which is not to be confused with privileges) your freedom is tacked to the wall at corporate headquarters and if you ever go against a corporate decision or policy your certification will be taken and your freedom returned to you.
This is the caste system and it was highlighted at its peak during World War Two with the German soldier and how far into complete madness they would go to maintain their rank in society. It even went so far as to turn in ones rank as a soldier meant your freedom was returned to you but you were put in prison or killed by your own army as a traitor.
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Radix
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Re: Revolution

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:11 pm This is exactly what I’m saying Buddha revolted against.


No. Read again.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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