Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by santa100 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:29 pm
santa100 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:12 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:05 pm He mentioned the conditions of entering the pure land in the vow. Not killing insects is not mentioned in the conditions. So a priori it is not a condition.
But that's the whole point, killing insects is not mentioned, neither is mass murder and serial raping! (as long as those who are killed and raped are not one's own parents, in order to satisfy that Five Heinous crimes minimal requirement). So going with your logic, if it was ok for you, the insect-killer to enter Pure Land, it should also be ok for mass murderers and serial rapists too!
I don't see a problem with that
But that IS the problem. If anyone can go there, there's no need for the concept of Amitabha and no need for His 48 vows. Matter of fact, Christians, Muslims and all other religious believers can make their own arguments that Pure Land is a useless place, for their version of paradises would be much better places to be, as long as one "sincerely believe in" Christ, or Allah, or whoever....
santa100
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by santa100 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:31 pm
And if even mass murderers and serial rapists could enter Pure Land, then everyone should be able to go there and there'd be no need for Amitabha to make His 48 vows in the first place!
Why ?
Because if Pure Land was the place of mass murderers and serial rapists, the whole notion of Amitabha and His 48 would be one big gigantic lie, for there'd be nothing "Pure" about that "Land". One might as well calling it the Dumpster Land instead!
DeadBuddha
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by DeadBuddha »

santa100 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:42 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:29 pm
santa100 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:12 pm
But that's the whole point, killing insects is not mentioned, neither is mass murder and serial raping! (as long as those who are killed and raped are not one's own parents, in order to satisfy that Five Heinous crimes minimal requirement). So going with your logic, if it was ok for you, the insect-killer to enter Pure Land, it should also be ok for mass murderers and serial rapists too!
I don't see a problem with that
But that IS the problem. If anyone can go there, there's no need for the concept of Amitabha and no need for His 48 vows. Matter of fact, Christians, Muslims and all other religious believers can make their own arguments that Pure Land is a useless place, for their version of paradises would be much better places to be, as long as one "sincerely believe in" Christ, or Allah, or whoever....
Those who have committed the 5 serious faults cannot go.
santa100
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by santa100 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:48 am Those who have committed the 5 serious faults cannot go.
And if mass murders and serial rapists could go, one should just call it Dumpster Land, not Pure Land.
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cappuccino
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by cappuccino »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:59 pm Is it really so easy (compared to the monk) to reach the Pure Land?
You have to be Anāgāmi
asahi
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by asahi »

According to pureland teachings if mass murderers and serial rapists repented before they dies and have faith in Buddha Amitabha and pureland and chanted His names , the possibility of reborn in pureland is there .
No bashing No gossiping
Jack19990101
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Maybe there should not be injection of doubt to this faith based practice.
hence the removal
santa100
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by santa100 »

asahi wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:36 pm According to pureland teachings if mass murderers and serial rapists repented before they dies and have faith in Buddha Amitabha and pureland and chanted His names , the possibility of reborn in pureland is there .
And that itself is a big problem, as you'd probably already guessed, mass murderers, serial rapists, pathological liars, etc. who learned about that kind of teaching would continue to kill, rape, and lie until the very last moment before they die, if all that's needed was some mere faith and name chanting!

Anyway, I've just checked on the origin of that vow and found it in a Sutra called "The Infinite Life Sutra" with the exact quote below:
Infinite Life Sutra wrote:(18) If, when I attain Buddhahood, sentient beings in the lands of the ten quarters who sincerely and joyfully entrust themselves to me, desire to be born in my land, and call my Name, even ten times, should not be born there, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment. Excluded, however, are those who commit the five gravest offences and abuse the right Dharma.
So per the highlighted part, Pureland practitioners nowadays somehow intentionally or unintentionally ignore the "abuse the right Dharma" part, while only mention the "commit the five gravest offences" part!!!
Last edited by santa100 on Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
asahi
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by asahi »

santa100 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:17 pm
asahi wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:36 pm According to pureland teachings if mass murderers and serial rapists repented before they dies and have faith in Buddha Amitabha and pureland and chanted His names , the possibility of reborn in pureland is there .
And that itself is a big problem, as you'd probably already guessed, mass murderers, serial rapists, pathological liars, etc. who learned about that kind of teaching would continue to kill, rape, and lie until the very last moment before they die, if all that's needed was some mere faith and name chanting!
Well , not to worry so much santa100 , how many percentage of them would repent at the moment of near death plus believing in Buddha Amitabha and pureland existence ?! I would say not 1 in a million .
Therefore , this faith practice is not as easy as one presumed . According to Amitabha Sutra , it says one need to chants starting from 1 day , 2 days , 3 days , 4 days , 5 days , 6 days and up to 7 days with sincerity in order to establish a peaceful calmed recollected mind to enable to be reborn in the pureland . And also need to equip with abundance puñña and many good conditions . A person whom are lucky with very heavy karma or little puñña only can reborn at "border" of pureland .
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santa100
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by santa100 »

asahi wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:43 pm ...
Please see my updated post above. I've just found the source text and updated it.
TRobinson465
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by TRobinson465 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:59 pm Hello.

I find that if it is possible to reach a Pure Land simply by having a deep faith in Amithaba and reciting his name, then I don't see why becoming a monk would be such a big deal.
I think it's similar to Christian pastors. They believe they will get to heaven anyways but become pastors hoping to help more souls. Pure land monks is probably the same rationale to an extent
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
tamdrin
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by tamdrin »

It was interesting... I've always wondered does the pure land of Amitabha exist? It seems so miraculous it's hard for us to believe it. I asked a disciple of Ajahn Anan, who is a very highly respected Thai forest monk of the highest caliber. According to this disciple, Ajahn Anan has said that the Amitabha pure land does in fact exist. People always ask him if heaven and hell exist as well and he answers in the affirmative. I highly recommend Ajahn Anan's dhamma talks available on YouTube.
Jack19990101
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Yeah... we should not have doubt of those lands...
Jack19990101
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Altho i don't think it is as easy as some opinion claims.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Is it so easy to reach the Pure Land?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Here are the "passed down" Vows of the Amida Buddha.

https://sanmateobuddhisttemple.org/48-v ... harmakara/

"48 VOWS OF BODHISATTVA DHARMAKARA (AMIDA BUDDHA)"
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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