Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by Ceisiwr »

suspence772 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:18 am
This is exactly why I stopped diving deep into the jhana war. I've been discouraged to even try jhana without a teacher since I'd like to gain a better understanding of whether I'm practicing it correctly. I hear viewpoints from all sides: soft jhana is okay, anything other than hard isn't even access concentration, both are jhana just varying depths, only one in a million can do it (which by the way isn't true - large numbers were used to emphasize magnitude and not to be taken literally), first jhana isn't that big of a deal and most people can get into it without too much trouble, etc.

As a result, I've been inclined to "settle" on Mahasi-noting since it has been easy enough to do and powerful, but metta has been one of the greatest additions to my practice and now wish to make it part of my foundation. I really just don't know what to believe anymore: I've used Leigh Brasington's book to get to a soft jhanas up to fourth and think it may even be easier to just do the Bhante V./TWIM method but are those even worth doing? I'm sure everyone has their opinions...
Up until the point of complete absorption, which Theravāda considers to be Jhāna proper, the practice and experiences are exactly the same. So, just stick with whichever method feels best for you. If you find it leads to a diminishing of the hindrances and the nurturing of the Jhāna factors then go with it. Then if a nimitta does appear, you could try absorption too and decide for yourself which is best.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by suspence772 »

robertk wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:37 am So does metta need to be developed to the level of jhana to be beneficial, or can friendliness be gradually inculcated while with other people?
Great question and thank you for asking. I was originally skeptical of practicing metta, but one day I decided to give it a shot and let go of all my expectations. Since then, I'm continually surprised at how much this helps my practice in nearly every area off-cushion, in ways vipassana hasn't. I've thought about doing a small amount of Brahma Vihara practice to supplement my vipassana, but this hasn't done too much for my practice honestly. Using it as a dedicated practice instead of as a supplement shows it's benefits in many areas I haven't cultivated when using it as supplement. I like to think I hit at least first jhana with each sit, but this would be a "sutta" or "soft" jhana according to the "hard" camp since there isn't complete sensory deprivation. I'd like to confirm if I am attaining the jhanas, but maybe that can come later. Eventually, I'd like to try Brahma Vihara vipassana as described by Mahasi Sayadaw in his Brahmavihara Dhamma but am trying to get used to it as a samatha practice first.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:25 pm Up until the point of complete absorption, which Theravāda considers to be Jhāna proper, the practice and experiences are exactly the same. So, just stick with whichever method feels best for you. If you find it leads to a diminishing of the hindrances and the nurturing of the Jhāna factors then go with it. Then if a nimitta does appear, you could try absorption too and decide for yourself which is best.
I would say that whatever jhana practice I have practiced in the past has lead to a diminishing of the hindrances without a doubt while nurturing the jhana factors. It's just that I feel that the "hard" camp makes it seem like you may as well not even meditate at all if you're not in complete and utter sensory deprivation, hence my discouragement.

I appreciate all the replies.
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robertk
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by robertk »

suspence772 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:03 am
robertk wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:37 am So does metta need to be developed to the level of jhana to be beneficial, or can friendliness be gradually inculcated while with other people?
Great question and thank you for asking. I was originally skeptical of practicing metta, but one day I decided to give it a shot and let go of all my expectations. Since then, I'm continually surprised at how much this helps my practice in nearly every area off-cushion, in ways vipassana hasn't. I've thought about doing a small amount of Brahma Vihara practice to supplement my vipassana, but this hasn't done too much for my practice honestly.

Yes, any degree of metta must make our lives more smooth. If we are treating people with friendship and kindness then they respond in kind. And kusala citta cannot arise with unpleasant feeling- only pleasant or neutral.

But I think it goes together well with the development of satipatthana vipassana.
Take thinking. Sometimes we are worried about some issue and keep thinking over it and that is natural. But thinking can be seen as a process happening by itself because it is conditioned. If it can be seen in that way then there is a level of detachment.

Bringing in metta: Say someone has done us harm, then the understanding of thinking as merely a conditioned process means any anger dissipates more easily, and can be replaced by metta.
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by suspence772 »

robertk wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:25 pm Yes, any degree of metta must make our lives more smooth. If we are treating people with friendship and kindness then they respond in kind. And kusala citta cannot arise with unpleasant feeling- only pleasant or neutral.

But I think it goes together well with the development of satipatthana vipassana.
Take thinking. Sometimes we are worried about some issue and keep thinking over it and that is natural. But thinking can be seen as a process happening by itself because it is conditioned. If it can be seen in that way then there is a level of detachment.

Bringing in metta: Say someone has done us harm, then the understanding of thinking as merely a conditioned process means any anger dissipates more easily, and can be replaced by metta.
I agree with everything you stated. I want to clarify that I didn't mean to disparage or disregard vipassana in any way - vipassana is irreplaceable and has allowed my practice to flourish in ways I can't explain in mere words. If offers a side of the practice that metta doesn't bring, and vice versa. I think that I focused too much on vipassana and not enough on samatha over the previous months and I'm trying to find that delicate balance now. At the moment, I think the brahma viharas are proving to be a missing piece of the puzzle for my practice.

I know it's all nama-rupa anyway, but practicing metta at the very least has brought zeal, eagerness, and enjoyment to my practice, whereas doing hours and hours of satipatthana didn't really do this. Of course these are all things to note but to use an analogy, I would liken brahma vihara bhavana as another tool in the kitchen, and vipassana as the main kitchen knife. Knowing how to use a kitchen knife (vipassana) is the foundation of cooking (dhamma practice) and one must be able to be skilled in its usage. Using my knife to the exclusion of everything else taught me how to be a skilled cook (practitioner), but there are other tools I now use (brahma vihara bhavana) that makes the cooking process (dhamma practice) more fun in and outside the kitchen.

Hope this makes sense. The goal is to do satipatthana if/when I emerge from jhana (whether soft or otherwise), but getting used to the practice first.
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robertk
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by robertk »

suspence772 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:50 am
I know it's all nama-rupa anyway, but practicing metta at the very least has brought zeal, eagerness, and enjoyment to my practice, whereas doing hours and hours of satipatthana didn't really do this.
:anjali:
Good to hear that!
The only comment I could make is that a lack of joie de vivre is a not uncommon malady of the groups engaged in intense practice of vipassana techniques. But I believe that satipatthana should be commensurate with a deeper understanding of life and a growing feeling of ease.
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:24 am
suspence772 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:50 am
I know it's all nama-rupa anyway, but practicing metta at the very least has brought zeal, eagerness, and enjoyment to my practice, whereas doing hours and hours of satipatthana didn't really do this.
:anjali:
Good to hear that!
The only comment I could make is that a lack of joie de vivre is a not uncommon malady of the groups engaged in intense practice of vipassana techniques. But I believe that satipatthana should be commensurate with a deeper understanding of life and a growing feeling of ease.
Well said.
William Hart, The Art Of Living, p127 wrote:The Buddha said that in cleansing the mind and attaining "wisdom brought to full perfection," one experiences "joy, bliss, tranquility, awareness, full understanding, real happiness." With a balanced mind we can enjoy life more. When a pleasant situation occurs, we can saviour it completely, having full and undistracted awareness of the present moment. But when the experience passes, we do not become distressed. We continue to smile, understanding that it was bound to change. Equally, when an unpleasant situation occurs, we do not become upset. Instead we understand it and by doing so perhaps we find a way to alter it. If that is not within our power, then we still remain peaceful, knowing full well that this experience is impermanent, bound to pass away. In this way, by keeping the mind free of tension, we can have a more enjoyable and productive life.

There is a story that in Burma people used to criticize the students of Sayagayi U Ba Khin, saying that they lacked the serious demeanour proper to those who practice Vipassana meditation. During a course, the critics admitted, they worked seriously, as they should, but afterward they always appeared happy and smiling. When the criticism came to the ears of Webu Sayadaw one of the most highly respected monks in the country, he replied, "They smile because they can smile". Their was a smile not of attachment or ignorance, but of Dhamma. Someone who has cleansed the mind will not go about with a frown. When suffering is removed, naturally one smiles. When one learns the way to liberation, naturally one feels happy.

This smile from the heart expressing nothing but peace, equanimity and good will, a smile that remains bright in every situation, is real happiness. This is the goal of the Dhamma.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:41 am
robertk wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:24 am
suspence772 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:50 am I know it's all nama-rupa anyway, but practicing metta at the very least has brought zeal, eagerness, and enjoyment to my practice, whereas doing hours and hours of satipatthana didn't really do this.
:anjali:
Good to hear that!
The only comment I could make is that a lack of joie de vivre is a not uncommon malady of the groups engaged in intense practice of vipassana techniques. But I believe that satipatthana should be commensurate with a deeper understanding of life and a growing feeling of ease.
Well said.
I seem to have avoided groups, or circumstances, that have that lack of a sense of joy, though I've seen hints of it in some conversations with people who seemed to see happiness as a obstacle.

Even in the Goeka retreat I did in Hong Kong about 15 years ago (those retreats, on the surface, appear to be a good way of taking out all the joy), I have an interesting recollection of sitting listening to one of Goenka's (recorded) talks in the middle of the retreat. At one point a mosquito flew in. My first thought was not about the possible pain of getting bitten, it was a thought of kindness towards the mosquito - I hoped they would fly away before getting swatted by someone... :tongue: It was such a joyful experience.

Of course, any development has ups and down, and you can read about the Buddha wrestling with very difficult issues in the suttas. But certainly, the overall arc should be towards happiness.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

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I’m so grateful for all these replies, so thank you all so much! When I do sattipathana, I nearly always end up in a state filled with equanimity as I feel it helps me identify all incoming thoughts and sensations with clarity without the bias of discernment. But if there was discernment, I would also note that as well. I’m starting to understand how important it is to generate enthusiasm for your practice but I can’t seem to knock the neutrality. After many hours of satipatthana, it just ends up becoming something to do and not something to cling to, like drinking water or breathing.

I guess I’m unsure of how to generate enthusiasm without letting go of the transient motivation to do so, since this is all about letting go anyway. Metta seems to transcend this for me as it allows me to genuinely wish, happiness and goodwill for others. But of course, this isn’t insight practice.

Maybe I’m doing satipatthana wrong, but is the idea to just plow-through it? I’ve never had as much compassion for others in my life prior to my Brahma vihara bhavana, and the Buddha often taught to be compassionate for others, no? How does satipatthana develop compassion?
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

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suspence772 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:01 am I’m so grateful for all these replies, so thank you all so much! When I do sattipathana, I nearly always end up in a state filled with equanimity as I feel it helps me identify all incoming thoughts and sensations with clarity without the bias of discernment. But if there was discernment, I would also note that as well. I’m starting to understand how important it is to generate enthusiasm for your practice but I can’t seem to knock the neutrality. After many hours of satipatthana, it just ends up becoming something to do and not something to cling to, like drinking water or breathing.

I guess I’m unsure of how to generate enthusiasm without letting go of the transient motivation to do so, since this is all about letting go anyway. Metta seems to transcend this for me as it allows me to genuinely wish, happiness and goodwill for others. But of course, this isn’t insight practice.

Maybe I’m doing satipatthana wrong, but is the idea to just plow-through it? I’ve never had as much compassion for others in my life prior to my Brahma vihara bhavana, and the Buddha often taught to be compassionate for others, no? How does satipatthana develop compassion?
Thanks for detailing your experiences- which if I look back many years I see similarities to what I was doing.

I don't think plowing through it is right, you might end up with strange experiences that are taken as positive or negative and yet come from concentration rather than real understanding.

On the other hand in the Satipatthana sutta it says
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... #discourse
When doubt is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have doubt,' or when doubt is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no doubt.' He understands how the arising of non-arisen doubt comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen doubt comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned doubt comes to be.
One way of course is to try force those doubts away, perhaps by concentrating on a meditation object. But we see how the sutta says he "knows with understanding 'I have doubt'".

In fact the doubt or worry etc might be the very object that wisdom starts to understand. I believe if doubt can be understood - and that can happen while walking, talking, working - then confidence really begins to grow.

However it doesn't seem to work when we try to force things. After that quote from the sutta you might feel all prepared to insight doubt- and then it doesn't arise :)

So it is all very subtle as you obviously know.
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by suspence772 »

As much as I love where this thread is going, it's getting a bit off-topic and so I may route it to a fresh new post to discuss.

Getting back to the OP:
Reading back through the Vism. and through the previously referenced posts I included earlier, I realized that I was trying to look at jhana in the context of the "soft" context and not in it's own context. I now understand when Ceisiwr said:
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:25 pm Up until the point of complete absorption, which Theravāda considers to be Jhāna proper, the practice and experiences are exactly the same. So, just stick with whichever method feels best for you. If you find it leads to a diminishing of the hindrances and the nurturing of the Jhāna factors then go with it. Then if a nimitta does appear, you could try absorption too and decide for yourself which is best.
The previous citation of pervasions now makes more sense in a new light:
44. Now, it is by means of one of these jhánas beginning with the first that he “Dwells pervading (intent upon) one direction with his heart endued with loving-kindness...For this versatility comes about only in one whose consciousness has reached absorption in the first jhána and the rest. (Vism. IX.44 307)
I'm not interpreting this as meditation instructions anymore at this point since this would require vitakka and vicara to predominate if one were to actively pervade in specific directions or to all beings. Instead, I feel that this is a description of what each respective abiding has evolved into, being that it has now gained "versatility" as a result of jhana. The ability to pervade metta in all directions to all beings is able to be done by the "means" of the jhana; as in, the jhanic state would allow this to happen, not the thinking and directing mind. What further supports this is:
116. The meaning is this: “Bhikkhu, when this basic concentration has been developed by you by means of loving-kindness, then, instead of resting content with just that much, you should make this basic concentration reach quadruple and quintuple jhána in other objects by [further] developing it in the way beginning ‘With applied thought.’” (Vism. IX.116 324)
"Other objects" here being the other abidings presumably. So one uses each abiding to develop concentration and with this concentration, one enters jhana. The "basic concentration" is what gets one into jhana, not the respective abiding; the abiding is the means to the basic concentration.

My understanding for the Brahmavihara bhavana process is now:
1. Pervade the respective abiding to one of four to five persons (self, dear, neutral, hostile), "breaking down the barriers" and practicing mental impartiality. The object of meditation is the feeling of the abiding which may be incited with each mantra or wish; this feeling should subsist with each person, but may desist if the hindrances are present with anger and lust which would break concentration.

2. Once the barriers have been broken, mental impartiality has been reached which would allow the individual to look at all beings with equal discernment without any hindrances. It is only in this state that one is in first jhana. Concentration moves the mind into jhana, and the absence of the hindrances allows the concentration to deepen and move forward. If the user still has anger and lust, then the hindrances haven't been abandoned and the barriers have not been broken, therefore not being in jhana.

3. By being in first jhana, one has gained versatility with the abiding such that, one can pervade it to all beings in all directions, due to the lack of any hindrances that otherwise would have prevented one from doing so in the first place. The description of the pervasions doesn't so much signify meditation instructions, but rather describes how the abiding has now evolved with the attainment of absorption. Since the hindrances have been abandoned, one can at last look at the world without any biases or passions - but only when not in jhana of course, since that would require vitakka and vicara.

4. One should aim to reach third jhana, which then would require the user to switch to the next abiding. After third jhana, upekkha can be practiced by emerging from third jhana from one of the abidings, ideally after all three have been attained. One pervades the four persons with uppekha until fourth jhana is reached.

This sound about right?
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by Ceisiwr »

suspence772 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 am My understanding for the Brahmavihara bhavana process is now:
1. Pervade the respective abiding to one of four to five persons (self, dear, neutral, hostile), "breaking down the barriers" and practicing mental impartiality. The object of meditation is the feeling of the abiding which may be incited with each mantra or wish; this feeling should subsist with each person, but may desist if the hindrances are present with anger and lust which would break concentration.

2. Once the barriers have been broken, mental impartiality has been reached which would allow the individual to look at all beings with equal discernment without any hindrances. It is only in this state that one is in first jhana. Concentration moves the mind into jhana, and the absence of the hindrances allows the concentration to deepen and move forward. If the user still has anger and lust, then the hindrances haven't been abandoned and the barriers have not been broken, therefore not being in jhana.

3. By being in first jhana, one has gained versatility with the abiding such that, one can pervade it to all beings in all directions, due to the lack of any hindrances that otherwise would have prevented one from doing so in the first place. The description of the pervasions doesn't so much signify meditation instructions, but rather describes how the abiding has now evolved with the attainment of absorption. Since the hindrances have been abandoned, one can at last look at the world without any biases or passions - but only when not in jhana of course, since that would require vitakka and vicara.

4. One should aim to reach third jhana, which then would require the user to switch to the next abiding. After third jhana, upekkha can be practiced by emerging from third jhana from one of the abidings, ideally after all three have been attained. One pervades the four persons with uppekha until fourth jhana is reached.

This sound about right?
Yes you are developing perception and intention, with the formation of mettā (an emotion) coming from that. This all has to do with controlling one's perceptions and mind. For example, in this sutta we have the following:
“Friends, if he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained mastery of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but earth. Why is that? There is earth-property in that wood pile, in dependence on which he could will that wood pile to be nothing but earth.

“If he wanted to, a monk with psychic power, having attained mastery of his mind, could will that wood pile to be nothing but water… fire… wind… beautiful… unattractive. Why is that? There is the property of the unattractive in that wood pile, in dependence on which he could will that wood pile to be nothing but unattractive.”
- AN 6.41

This is being able to see things as we wish, and is connected to the practices of

If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending.

and

I “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the first basis of overcoming.

II “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the second basis of overcoming.

III “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the third basis of overcoming.

IV “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fourth basis of overcoming...


So with virtue and sense restraint as a basis you train you mind in such a way that when you encounter beings you only focus on the perception of non-threatening, their dukkha, their virtue or admirable qualities and the drawbacks of focusing on their pleasurable unpleasant qualities. This of course naturally diminishes the hindrances. That is to say, you no longer react to sense experience with a defiled mind. The mind is now at ease, calm and composed. It's not longer being tossed around by lust, aversion etc. Naturally then this can lead into the Jhānas. All 4 brahmavihārās can be developed with all 4 Jhānas, but each one can culminate in different attainments. Loving-kindness culminates in "the beautiful", where all you can see is beauty in everything. Compassion in Infinite Space, since form brings great pain. Sympathetic joy in Infinite Conciousness, since you are focusing on the conciousness element. Equanimity in Nothingness, since you perceive there is nothing worth having.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Metta Pervasions and Jhana in Vism.

Post by robertk »

suspence772 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:27 am
My understanding for the Brahmavihara bhavana process is now:
n.

I think even having a little more friendliness is progression.
High levels are extraordinary, even though many claim to have such.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .soma.html
. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who in this way is devoid of coveting, devoid of ill will, undeluded, clearly comprehending and mindful, dwells, having pervaded, with the thought of amity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of amity that is free of hate or malice
So are we the one who can pervade the 4 quarters with metta, or is preliminary work needed.
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