The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

After reading “A History of Mindfulness” by Sujato I agree that Satipaṭṭhāna is a samādhi exercise which aims at Jhāna and, as the suttas state, that Satipaṭṭhāna is a means to overcome the hindrances. However, the texts also link the Brahmavihārās with Jhāna. The difficulty for me is to see how the Brahmavihārās fit with Satipaṭṭhāna. For example, in Satipaṭṭhāna you take an aspect of the body as the starting point (body parts, elements, breath etc) but it’s hard to see how loving-kindness fits with the bodily aspect of Satipaṭṭhāna. Do these two schemes match at all, or are the Brahmavihārās an alternative way of developing Jhāna? Satipaṭṭhāna looks like an innovation of the Buddha (I’m not aware of anyplace where other ascetics are said to practice them). If so, what makes Satipaṭṭhāna different from the Brahmavihārās if both lead to a diminishing of the hindrances and entry into samādhi? Is it perhaps that Satipaṭṭhāna is combining samatha with insight? If so, it’s still hard to see how Satipaṭṭhāna can be done with the Brahmavihārās.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
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one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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bodom
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Re: The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by bodom »

Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

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SarathW
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Re: The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by SarathW »

that Satipaṭṭhāna is a samādhi exercise which aims at Jhāna
I do not agree with this.
However you can redirect the first stage of Satipathana (mindfulness of body) to Jhana.
You have to come out of Jhana to practice Satipathana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:34 pm After reading “A History of Mindfulness” by Sujato I agree that Satipaṭṭhāna is a samādhi exercise which aims at Jhāna and, as the suttas state, that Satipaṭṭhāna is a means to overcome the hindrances. However, the texts also link the Brahmavihārās with Jhāna. The difficulty for me is to see how the Brahmavihārās fit with Satipaṭṭhāna. For example, in Satipaṭṭhāna you take an aspect of the body as the starting point (body parts, elements, breath etc) but it’s hard to see how loving-kindness fits with the bodily aspect of Satipaṭṭhāna. Do these two schemes match at all, or are the Brahmavihārās an alternative way of developing Jhāna? Satipaṭṭhāna looks like an innovation of the Buddha (I’m not aware of anyplace where other ascetics are said to practice them). If so, what makes Satipaṭṭhāna different from the Brahmavihārās if both lead to a diminishing of the hindrances and entry into samādhi? Is it perhaps that Satipaṭṭhāna is combining samatha with insight? If so, it’s still hard to see how Satipaṭṭhāna can be done with the Brahmavihārās.
Why do Buddha needs to emphasized on Satipaṭṭhāna just for the sake of attaining jhana ? Overcoming hindrances is the first step which enable to calm the mind hence jhana that one achieved along the process in Satipaṭṭhāna practice . Brahmaviharas are but something optional . Does 1250 arahant all completed Brahmaviharas ? No .
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mikenz66
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Re: The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by mikenz66 »

The argument is made by quite a few people, including Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Analayo. Bhikkhu Analayo's analysis is in Perspectives on Satipaṭṭhāna and he proposes a practical approach in Satipatthana, Satipaṭṭhāna Meditation: A Practice Guide, which can be freely downloaded (these books are freely available at https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... s-analayo/). Furthermore, the gradual training described in suttas such as DN2 has the sequence ... mindfulness, giving up hindrances, jhana... In the Sujato/Analayo analysis, the common elements in the parallels of the fourth satipatthana is hindrances and enlightenment factors, the latter including samadhi.

It appear that there is a modern conflation of satipatthana with insight. Sati is just one factor required for insight, samadhi is also necessary.

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santa100
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Re: The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by santa100 »

Satipatthana is a comprehensive approach that covers a much wider scope of practice than Brahmaviharas: KaayaNupassana involves 14 exercises, VedanaNupassana 1 exercise, CittaNupassana 1 exercise, and lastly DhammaNupassana involves 5 different exercises that ranges from Five Hindrances to Seven Factors of Enlightenement and Four Noble Truths. And that's why the Buddha gave Satipatthana such rare honor:
MN 10 wrote:Bhikkhus, this is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain and grief, for the attainment of the true way, for the realisation of Nibbana—namely, the four foundations of mindfulness."

Ven. Bodhi in "Middle Length Discourses" also noted:
Through Satipatthana, this way proclaimed by the Buddha is called "ekayana magga": "a single path", not a divided path; that has to be walked by oneself alone, without a companion; and as a way that goes to one goal, Nibbana;"a direct path", distinguish it from other approach like the jhanas or brahmaviharas, which might lead to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal of Nibbana;
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nirodh27
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Re: The Brahmavihārās and Satipaṭṭhāna

Post by nirodh27 »

Just a sketch because I have very little time.

The Brahmaviharas are an alternative way to reach (second) jhana and get to the Vitakkasaṇṭhāna (relaxation/stopping of thoughts) as of MN20.

They are a form of pre-jhanic to second jhana practice (for tradition, it would probably be the first) in which there are thoughts "in accordance with the Dhamma" (MA102) and they replace bad, unskillful thoughts with skillful ones.
“There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts—connected with desire, aversion, or delusion—arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts—connected with desire, aversion, or delusion—are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a dexterous carpenter or his apprentice would use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out a large one...
In this case, metta is your theme of skillful meditation.

Ofc Brahmaviharas are a special kind of Samadhi/Jhana: since there's no memory analysis of the Body, feelings, mind and Principles/teachings they are unlikely (in a more positive seeing not the most direct and straightforward theme) to bring you to dispassion and insight which needs the examination, understanding and penetration of the four noble truths and the mechanism of clinging. Even in tradition I think the Brahmaviharas stops there, and cannot bring you further than a pleasant rebirth/experience and, since there's no actual wisdom developed there by wishing happiness alone (altough the way you practice the metta can give you some insight about suffering), you will revert to the same as before sooner or later if the conditions are not there to maintain the state.

That is why they are not a reliable form of happiness or liberation.

While when you do Satipatthana you settle/understand/stay near (upaṭṭhāna) your memory (sati) of the teachings/principles, that is why is a practice that is certainly conductive to insight and to the right samadhi that is the pinnacle of the eightfold path, the one that can get you to dipassion, knowledge and liberation.
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