New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:39 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:36 pm Therefore “Buddhavaccana” was spoken by me, not Sujato in his post, although it’s implied when discussing the great references since that is what they relate to.
Yes, I know it wasn't Sujato trying to degrade the meaning of that expression.

Paul. :)
It was a bit strange to write as you did, given what I said. Also please desist from slandering me.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”

- Tālapuṭattheragāthā
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by mikenz66 »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:24 pm ... This example I gave, I think, demonstrably unrelated to what is there in the suttas.
Thank you for being specific. By all means offer criticism, but when criticusm begins with expressions like "some teachers ..." it deserves to be ignored, in my opinion.

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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by mjaviem »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:53 am What is terrible about sensuality is that we don't give a damn about others as long as we get what we want. I see this as very important and it's explained in MN 13. If I had to give an exam about the danger in sensuality I would talk about all the bad things on account of sensuality that people do in order to pass it...
We can see the importance not only in MN 13 but AN 10.61 Avijjāsutta as well.
AN 10.61 Bodhi wrote:... The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties... Non-restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of misconduct...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by Lucilius »

From the book, page 129 (pdf format), Jhāna is virtue:
This means that you actually come closer to jhāna by simply keeping the precepts (that is, the eight precepts; the five precepts alone are not sufficient to enable your withdrawal from sensuality, which is the necessary basis for jhāna)
This notion can be disproved quite easily imo,

1. AN 8.22 Ugga Sutta (Thanissaro transl.):
Ugga said, “Venerable sir, I was carousing in the Nāga forest when I saw the Blessed One in the distance for the first time. As soon as I saw the Blessed One, my heart felt confidence, and my liquor-intoxication left me. This is the first amazing & astounding quality to be found in me.
“With a confident heart, I attended to the Blessed One. He gave me a graduated talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & defilement in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then—when the Blessed One knew that I was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—he proclaimed to me the distinctive teaching of the Awakened Ones: stress, origination, cessation, path. Just as a white cloth with stains removed would rightly take dye, in the same way there arose to me, in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then—having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning, having gained fearlessness & become independent of others with regard to the Teacher’s message, right there I went to the Buddha, the Dhamma, & the Saṅgha for refuge and undertook the training rules with celibacy as the fifth.
The "unhindered mind" (vinivaranacittam) here obviously means the first jhāna or higher.
Ugga didn't even undertake the five precepts when he first met the Blessed One, heared his graduated talk, attained concentration (free from hindrances), and broke through to stream-entry.
He was drinking before and he was not celibate, as the Sutta further indicates (he had multiple wives; and him undertaking the precept of celibacy was a change in their relationship-dynamic; so much so that he gave them the choice to leave him if they wanted to because of this).
It was enough for him to not break the precepts as he was listening to the talk to attain jhāna and stream entry.
But the notion that jhāna is only possible through perfecting the 8! precepts, as Ajaan Ñanamoli seems to claim, is not in line with the suttas.

2. DN 17 (Sujato transl.):
Then King Mahāsudassana thought, ‘Of what deed of mine is this the fruit and result, that I am now so mighty and powerful?’
Then King Mahāsudassana thought, ‘It is the fruit and result of three kinds of deeds: giving, self-control, and restraint.’
Then he went to the great foyer, stood at the door, and was inspired to exclaim: ‘Stop here, sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts— no further!’
Then he entered the great foyer and sat on the golden couch. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Here King Mahasudassana is actively breaking one of the 8 precepts by sitting on the golden, luxurious couch, and yet he still attains the first jhāna.

(Obviously, you need virtue for right concentration, as many suttas say, as it is a vital condition (see AN 5.24 for example), and I'm not saying it isn't.)

Just my two cents.
With mettā, bye.
EBT-Theravādin & Kammaṭṭhāna Tradition
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