Theravada view of women

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Are you a woman? Or do you just a male who has good insights on this?

Yes, I'm a woman. And can get quite angry sometimes

[DNS]

Are you a woman? Or do you just a male who has good insights on this?

Yes, I'm a woman. And can get quite angry sometimes

And some people say that there are no women here at DW. I always said you can't tell by the username in most cases.

[DNS]

It makes sense to me that in more egalitarian societies (like Northern Europe) the women are emotionally cooler and stereotypically seen as 'ice queens', they already have a lot of power relative to men. The ideal male archetype has changed there as well. While in more traditional/patriarchal societies there's a strong fierce mama female archetype and the male ideal is more stereotypically masculine too.

Yes, this seems to occur as societies become more industrialized and modern. In 6th century BCE, it was traditional culture, traditional economic systems relying heavily on agriculture, with men preforming nearly all of the work outside the home with women confined to the home.

In a modern office setting, there is no advantage to having higher muscle mass that men possess and women can succeed in the highest white collar positions. In the U.S. there is a higher graduation rate for women over men in all degree categories from B.A. to Ph.D., with M.D. being the only exception (the last time I checked). Gender roles have been changing due to this.

[Ceisiwr]

In a modern office setting, there is no advantage to having higher muscle mass that men possess and women can succeed in the highest white collar positions. In the U.S. there is a higher graduation rate for women over men in all degree categories from B.A. to Ph.D., with M.D. being the only exception (the last time I checked). Gender roles have been changing due to this.

In all the labs i've been in, they were all around 70-80% women. This is for life sciences.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Gender roles have been changing due to this.

Yep, along with quite a lot of anxiety and hand-wringing about it! These are uncertain, changeful times on so many fronts.

[TRobinson465]

Are you a woman? Or do you just a male who has good insights on this?

Yes, I'm a woman. And can get quite angry sometimes

And some people say that there are no women here at DW. I always said you can't tell by the username in most cases.

I'll admit. I default to assuming the user is male unless the username is obviously female. My old biases from playing online videos games getting to me.

[Bundokji]

It could be the case that women are better taught subliminally - i.e through teachings directed to men about women.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

I'll admit. I default to assuming the user is male unless the username is obviously female. My old biases from playing online videos games getting to me.

To be fair, it usually is a man. I think there are proportionally very few female regular posters here. In fact I only know of Kim O'Hara, and she doesn't post anymore sadly.

[Dan74]

I'll admit. I default to assuming the user is male unless the username is obviously female. My old biases from playing online videos games getting to me.

To be fair, it usually is a man. I think there are proportionally very few female regular posters here. In fact I only know of Kim O'Hara, and she doesn't post anymore sadly.

Kim (Malcolm) is a guy. I actually met him IRL when he visited Melbourne (along with retro (Paul)) so I am fairly certain of the fact. The only other active female member I know of is Aloka.

Why is this the case, I wonder?

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Kim (Malcolm) is a guy. I actually met him IRL when he visited Melbourne (along with retro (Paul)) so I am fairly certain of the fact. The only other active female member I know of is Aloka.

Why is this the case, I wonder?

I believe you and there I was all happy about such a sensible female voice on here. Guess it was a sensible male voice all along.

I've thought about why and don't have a definite answer. Think it has to do with Theravada not attracting that many women, internet forums being traditionally male bastions, the subject matter, the nature of the discussions. Don't think it needs to be addressed directly here, I think it's bigger than just this forum.

[Sam Vara]

I'll admit. I default to assuming the user is male unless the username is obviously female. My old biases from playing online videos games getting to me.

To be fair, it usually is a man. I think there are proportionally very few female regular posters here. In fact I only know of Kim O'Hara, and she doesn't post anymore sadly.

Kim (Malcolm) is a guy. I actually met him IRL when he visited Melbourne (along with retro (Paul)) so I am fairly certain of the fact. The only other active female member I know of is Aloka.

Why is this the case, I wonder?

There are a few others, I believe. But not enough, for sure.

[TRobinson465]

I'll admit. I default to assuming the user is male unless the username is obviously female. My old biases from playing online videos games getting to me.

To be fair, it usually is a man. I think there are proportionally very few female regular posters here. In fact I only know of Kim O'Hara, and she doesn't post anymore sadly.

Yeah it's quite interesting. Internet forums tend to attract males. Even reddit is mostly men regardless of topic. Except for the female geared reddit threads. It's interesting. Because if you go to temples in real life it's probably majority women in most temples. Even in Mahayana temples I've visited where they still have Bhikkhuni the nuns outnumber the monks usually

[pipwa]

Did I miss any important Theravada suttas?

Hi. I found these on this website: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_ ... &sa=Search

I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html

Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html

'Come now, monks: with regard to women who are old enough to be your mother, establish the attitude you would have toward your mother. With regard to women who are old enough to be your sister, establish the attitude you'd have toward a sister. With regard to women who are young enough to be your daughter, establish the attitude you'd have toward a daughter.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[SecretSage]

Well it seems like many people here are more talking about their own subjective views on women whereas this thread is meant for talking about the Therevada suttas.

Maybe they should share their subjective views somewhere else.

I found other suttas on women but most were negative too.

The best type of wife is the one like a bondservant:

Sujātā, these are the seven kinds of wife that a man can have. Which one of these are you?”

“Sir, from this day forth may the Buddha remember me as a wife like a bondservant.” - AN 7.63

Black Snake again:

“Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of a black snake. What five? It’s filthy, stinking, cowardly, frightening, and treacherous. These are the five dangers of a black snake.

In the same way there are five drawbacks of a female. What five? She’s filthy, stinking, cowardly, frightening, and treacherous. These are the five drawbacks of a female.” - AN 5.229

Families with many women and few men are easy prey:

“Mendicants, those families with many women and few men are easy prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way any mendicant who has not developed and cultivated the heart’s release by love is easy prey for non-humans. Those families with few women and many men are hard prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way a mendicant who has developed and cultivated the heart’s release by love is hard prey for non-humans." - SN 20.3

....

I read MN 93. This does not indicate a derogatory statement about women. It just refutes the Brahmin view they are born from Brahma's mouth rather than, in reality, born from the wombs of women.

He seemed to have no issue with any male of any caste joining the order of monks but had a really big issue with women joining

Monks were free to wander around. I once heard many monks were killed on their missionary journeys. A Buddha would not want to subject women to this because their families would get upset. Men are generally sent to war to die rather than women.

Well...that's what my reading tells me.

If MN 93 He attempts to refute the caste system:
- First points out the flaw of high-caste women still having a period, becoming pregnant, etc...
- Second points out the flaw that other countries don't have a caste system, only 2 castes servants and masters
- Third points out that the laws of kamma still apply regardless of caste (high caste still go to hell if they do bad deeds, low caste still go to heaven if they do good deeds)
- Fourth points out that any person of any caste can develop metta (loving-kindness)
- And so on...

But the very first point he mentions was the issue of brahmin women.

[TRobinson465]

The best type of wife is the one like a bondservant:

Sujātā, these are the seven kinds of wife that a man can have. Which one of these are you?”

“Sir, from this day forth may the Buddha remember me as a wife like a bondservant.” - AN 7.63

I'd disagree that that that means that is the best type of wife. that is the wife Sujata chose to be. He doesnt say that is the best one, he just outlines that its one of the good types, along with motherly, friend, and sisterly wife

Families with many women and few men are easy prey:

“Mendicants, those families with many women and few men are easy prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way any mendicant who has not developed and cultivated the heart’s release by love is easy prey for non-humans. Those families with few women and many men are hard prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way a mendicant who has developed and cultivated the heart’s release by love is hard prey for non-humans." - SN 20.3

This was a well known fact in ancient india. its basically the same as his analogies about farmers and fisherman. Its kinda logical to think a family of mostly women would be easy prey for thieves in ancient india. This is true even in the modern era of 3rd wave feminism to an extent, I visited an off-campus apt of only girls in college and they try to keep the fact that thier apt is all women a secret for security reasons. We shoudlnt just pretend that thieves dont attack women more often...

....

Well...that's what my reading tells me.

If MN 93 He attempts to refute the caste system:
- First points out the flaw of high-caste women still having a period, becoming pregnant, etc...
- Second points out the flaw that other countries don't have a caste system, only 2 castes servants and masters
- Third points out that the laws of kamma still apply regardless of caste (high caste still go to hell if they do bad deeds, low caste still go to heaven if they do good deeds)
- Fourth points out that any person of any caste can develop metta (loving-kindness)
- And so on...

But the very first point he mentions was the issue of brahmin women.

I kinda agree women having periods and becoming pregnant is something that is not exactly desirable. ive never met a woman who said they loved thier periods and the Buddha mentions menstruation and childbirth as sufferings unique to women, which i think is 100% correct. Is it negative? yeah because suffering is bad, is it derogatory? i dont really think so its just kinda matter of fact kinda like that thieves targeting households of women thing. We shouldnt just pretend that women dont get periods or become pregnant....