Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

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asahi
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Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by asahi »

What conditions constitute a monk revoking his monkhood status ?

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Mr Man
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by Mr Man »

The monastic makes a declaration to a witness that they no longer wish to follow the training. Both the monastic and witness must be of sound mind and understand what is happening. There is a traditional pali formula that is used and normally the declaration is made to a senior monk but I dont believe that is actually necessary although probably a good idea so that there no ambiguity.
SarathW
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand you just take the five precepts and get dressed in a shirt and a trouser.
However, it is a courtesy to discuss this with your teacher and inform the laypeople who looked after you as a monk.
If you decided to get married to one of your lay female supporters, just take her and run to another village. :tongue:
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asahi
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by asahi »

Mr Man wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:04 am The monastic makes a declaration to a witness that they no longer wish to follow the training. Both the monastic and witness must be of sound mind and understand what is happening. There is a traditional pali formula that is used and normally the declaration is made to a senior monk but I dont believe that is actually necessary although probably a good idea so that there no ambiguity.
I have heard some monks in Thailand take on lay clothing at night and visiting nightclub . I was thinking if that cancel their monk status according to vinaya .
Last edited by asahi on Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by Mr Man »

asahi wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:44 am
Mr Man wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:04 am The monastic makes a declaration to a witness that they no longer wish to follow the training. Both the monastic and witness must be of sound mind and understand what is happening. There is a traditional pali formula that is used and normally the declaration is made to a senior monk but I dont believe that is actually necessary although probably a good idea so that there no ambiguity.
I have heard some monks in Thailand take on lay clothing at night and visiting nightclub . I was thinking if that cancel their monk status according to vinaya .
Not unless they commit Parajika (a disrobing offence). If it was found out that a monastic was putting on lay clothing at night and visiting nightclubs, possibly pressure would be put on them to disrobe. In that past I think the authorities in Thailand have forced monks to disrobe.
asahi
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by asahi »

Mr Man wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:12 am Not unless they commit Parajika (a disrobing offence). If it was found out that a monastic was putting on lay clothing at night and visiting nightclubs, possibly pressure would be put on them to disrobe. In that past I think the authorities in Thailand have forced monks to disrobe.
Here's the situation . What if one get stumbled on such a monk (visiting clubs) and at where i am living many have found out however he is an independent monk . Since he is not commiting Parajika . No such authority could enforce anything on him . :shrug:
Last edited by asahi on Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by TRobinson465 »

removing robes temporarily does not nullify monkhood. If a monk does so they are simply in violation of one of the monk rules and must do some kind of special confession. To be removed from monkhood you must commit a parajika, get kicked out of your monastery for repeatedly violating the sanghadisesa rules shamelessly (I think), or voluntarily say the disrobe chant three times in front of another monk as a witness. I dont really remember it in Pali but the translation is something like "I give up the training. Please regard me as a layman from so forth". Then they take the 5 (or even 8 precepts) and continue their lay life.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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robertk
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by robertk »

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0009.html
To disrobe, a bhikkhu with firm intent states in the presence of a witness words to the effect that he is renouncing the training. The validity of the act depends on four factors:

1. The bhikkhu’s state of mind.

2. His intention.

3. His statement.

4. The witness to his statement.

State of mind
The bhikkhu must be in his right mind. Any statement he makes while insane, delirious with pain, or possessed by spirits does not count.

Intention
He must seriously desire to leave the Community. If, without actually intending to disrobe, he makes any of the statements usually used for disrobing, it does not count as an act of disrobing. For example, if he makes the statement in jest or is telling someone else how to disrobe, the fact that he mentions the words does not mean that he has disrobed. Also, if he is forced against his will to make a statement of disrobing, or if he says one thing and means something else—e.g., he makes a slip of the tongue—that too does not count.

The statement
The Vibhaṅga lists a wide variety of statements that one may use to renounce the training, following two basic patterns. The first pattern follows the form, “I renounce x,” where x may be replaced with the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Saṅgha, the training, the discipline (vinaya), the Pāṭimokkha, the celibate life, one’s preceptor, one’s teacher, one’s fellow bhikkhus, or any equivalent terms. Variants on this pattern include such statements as, “I am tired of x,” “What is x to me?” “X means nothing to me,” or “I am well freed of x.” The second pattern follows the form, “Consider me to be y,” where y may be replaced with a householder, a lay follower, a novice, a member of another sect, an adherent of another sect, or any other equivalent term.

The Vibhaṅga stipulates that the statement not be put in the conditional tense—or, in terms of English grammar, the subjunctive mood—(“Suppose I were to renounce the training”). Nor should it be expressed as a wish (“If only I were to renounce the training (§)”; “May I renounce the training (§)”) or as a question (“Should I renounce the training?” (§—reading apāhaṁ with the Burmese and PTS editions)). The Commentary further stipulates that the “x” statements must be in the present tense. Thus to say, “I have renounced the training,” or “I will renounce the training,” would not be a valid statement of disrobing.

The witness
The witness must be a human being in his or her right mind, and must understand what the bhikkhu says. This rules out the legendary practice of bhikkhus who disrobe by taking a Buddha image as their witness, or who disrobe in front of a Bodhi tree on the assumption that the tree deva counts.
asahi
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by asahi »

Now that the monk whom removes robes and wear lay clothing going to clubs didnt commit Parajika rules and since he is independent staying alone no authority able to act on him .
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Does by removing robes temporary nullify monkhood status ?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

It is not sufficient to remove the robes. It is vital to make one's intention to another, while being of sound mind.

Just taking off the robes, and wearing a lay person's clothes does not invalidate the status of a bhikkhu.

Enemies of a monk, might forcibly remove his robes, and leave him in town, wearing lay clothes, but he is still a bhikkhu. If he engages in sexual intercourse, steals, or murders his assailants, he is defeated and cannot ordain again.

However, he can simply return to the monastery, tell his fellow monks what happened, and put on the robes again. He does not need to ordain again, and retains whatever status he had before the events.
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