Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by cappuccino »

Aloka wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:57 pm I have personally attended Mingyur Rinpoche's teachings in the past
personally attending is not necessary
Justsit
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Justsit »

Aloka wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:57 pm I have personally attended Mingyur Rinpoche's teachings in the past - and he is is an excellent teacher:
:anjali:
Agree. He gave me my refuge vows. His father Tulku Urygen was a true vajra master, his brothers excellent as well.
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

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auto wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:30 pm
SecretSage wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:58 pm ..
I think i get it. Being able to drink vodka is better than not being able to. So the ascetists are intentionally making their life harder than it already is and living in self-made hell.
Well drinking vodka doesn't really directly result in sensual happiness it might be more correctly labeled as a painful austerity...something like eating tasty food would be more like something that directly results in sensual happiness.

It's stated many times in Theravada that experiencing sensual happiness and delights in heavenly realms is the result doing good deeds:
“Mendicants, don’t fear good deeds. For ‘good deeds’ is a term for happiness. I recall undergoing for a long time the likable, desirable, and agreeable results of good deeds performed over a long time. I developed a mind of love for seven years. As a result, for seven eons of the cosmos contracting and expanding I didn’t return to this world again. As the cosmos contracted I went to the realm of streaming radiance. As it expanded I was reborn in an empty mansion of Brahmā."
...
"It was replete with all sense pleasures, and the seven treasures. This was well taught by the Buddhas, who bring the world together. " - AN 7.62
In hellish realms beings don't experience sensual delights...it doesn't mean they are arahants or anything close.

But it's also explained the pleasures of arahantship are far superior to sensual pleasures.
Having conducted himself well in body, speech, and mind, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he might reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world in the retinue of the devas of the Thirty-three; and there, surrounded by a group of nymphs in the Nandana Grove, he would enjoy himself, provided and endowed with the five cords of divine sensual pleasure. Suppose he saw a householder or a householder’s son enjoying himself, provided and endowed with the five cords of human sensual pleasure. What do you think, Māgandiya? Would that young deva surrounded by the group of nymphs in the Nandana Grove, enjoying himself, provided and endowed with the five cords of divine sensual pleasure, envy the householder or the householder’s son for the five cords of human sensual pleasure or would he be enticed by human sensual pleasures?”

“No, Master Gotama. Why not? Because divine sensual pleasures are more excellent and sublime than human sensual pleasures.”

...I see other beings who are not free from lust for sensual pleasures being devoured by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with fever for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures, and I do not envy them nor do I delight therein. Why is that? Because there is, Māgandiya, a delight apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, which surpasses even divine bliss. Since I take delight in that, I do not envy what is inferior, nor do I delight therein." - MN 75
The reason why the arahants don't care for sensual pleasures is the same reason why beings in heavenly realms experiencing delights many thousands of times better than the delights humans experience don't care for human's sensual pleasures.

How could an arahant skilled in the six higher knowledges think of human sensual pleasures as delightful?

The arahant is the Supreme Being, beyond all others, superior to all the non-arahant devas, superior to even Maha Brahma, superior even to the non-arahant devas in the Pure Abodes.

If yourself were the Supreme Being beyond all others how could you envy or desire lower forms of happiness?

Certain things in Vajrayana Buddhism does fit in line with Theravada Buddhism and would leads towards higher heavenly realms or arahantship.
"You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way"
auto
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by auto »

SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:56 pm It's stated many times in Theravada that experiencing sensual happiness and delights in heavenly realms is the result doing good deeds:
I think so too.
SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:56 pm The reason why the arahants don't care for sensual pleasures is the same reason why beings in heavenly realms experiencing delights many thousands of times better than the delights humans experience don't care for human's sensual pleasures.
The less existence there is the better. For normal person, thirst for water is suffering, but for arhant it is pleasureable if on same grade thirst. The lust is pleasure, but since it is the case of arhant then it is not lust anymore.
Hence gathering tens of naked females to incite lust so that to cultivate further to get deeper insight into the emptiness.
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Ontheway »

Dalai Lama now:



Vajrayana is not true Buddha's teachings.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
asahi
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by asahi »

Broken (1st)
Paṭhamakhatasutta
AN 4.3

“When a foolish, incompetent bad person has four qualities they keep themselves broken and damaged. They deserve to be blamed and criticized by sensible people, and they make much bad karma. What four? Without examining or scrutinizing, they praise those deserving of criticism, and they criticize those deserving of praise. They arouse faith in things that are dubious, and they don’t arouse faith in things that are inspiring. When a foolish, incompetent bad person has these four qualities they keep themselves broken and damaged. They deserve to be blamed and criticized by sensible people, and they make much bad karma.


When you praise someone worthy of criticism,
or criticize someone worthy of praise,
you choose bad luck with your own mouth:
you’ll never find happiness that way.
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 12:45 pm Dalai Lama now:



Vajrayana is not true Buddha's teachings.
Apparently that’s a form of greeting in Tibetan culture.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:41 pm
Apparently that’s a form of greeting in Tibetan culture.
I can't see the media taking such a nuanced approach, though :shock:
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:41 pm
Apparently that’s a form of greeting in Tibetan culture.
I can't see the media taking such a nuanced approach, though :shock:
Even the likes of Owen Jones are going at him. That said, I don’t think the sucking of the tongue thing is a greeting just poking it out is. Not sure.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:41 pm
Apparently that’s a form of greeting in Tibetan culture.
I can't see the media taking such a nuanced approach, though :shock:
Apparently he also said “I stuck my tongue” rather than “suck my tongue”
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Ontheway »

asahi wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:55 pm Broken (1st)
Paṭhamakhatasutta
AN 4.3

“When a foolish, incompetent bad person has four qualities they keep themselves broken and damaged. They deserve to be blamed and criticized by sensible people, and they make much bad karma. What four? Without examining or scrutinizing, they praise those deserving of criticism, and they criticize those deserving of praise. They arouse faith in things that are dubious, and they don’t arouse faith in things that are inspiring. When a foolish, incompetent bad person has these four qualities they keep themselves broken and damaged. They deserve to be blamed and criticized by sensible people, and they make much bad karma.


When you praise someone worthy of criticism,
or criticize someone worthy of praise,
you choose bad luck with your own mouth:
you’ll never find happiness that way.
Good quote. This is why we should heed the advice of the Buddha as preserved in Pali Tipitaka and not fallen into wrong views.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:39 pm .
That sutta quote were about people, who are criticizing something without scrutinizing. These are the people who are to be blamed and criticized by sensible people.
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Ontheway »

auto wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:55 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:39 pm .
That sutta quote were about people, who are criticizing something without scrutinizing. These are the people who are to be blamed and criticized by sensible people.
You are referring to the video? That you are saying Dalai Lama was misunderstood by people?

Not a chance. None of the teachings of the historical Buddha or any precepts in Vinaya allows monastic monk to do such action on a child.

He apologized.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ngue-video
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:25 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:41 pm
Apparently that’s a form of greeting in Tibetan culture.
I can't see the media taking such a nuanced approach, though :shock:
Apparently he also said “I stuck my tongue” rather than “suck my tongue”
That’s what it sounds like to me, but I think it's going to depend on what people want him to have said.

Edit: having now seen the Daily Mirror version that DNS posted, it seems like the latter.

Not good.

Say it ain't so, Tenzin Gyatso.
auto
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Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:58 pm .
Can you point out what rule he broke?
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