SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Mumfie »

frank k wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:16 pm Show me how your awesome "reading comprehension skills" works when you see how in SN 56.11, in the twelve permutations, one is told to abandon the second noble truth, rather than craving, the cause of suffering that the second noble truth is referring to.
How well will your grammar and lexical skills serve you there?
It is precisely on account of a lack of lexical skills (i.e., an inaccurate understanding of the semantic range of the word sacca) that certain readers of SN56.11 (starting with Mrs Rhys Davids) have regarded the phrase duk­kha­sa­muda­yaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pahātabbaṃ as problematic. The seeming problem disappears when one recognizes the very imperfect semantic correspondence between English truth and Pali sacca.
The word satya (Pāli sacca) can certainly mean truth, but it might equally well be rendered as ‘real’ or ‘actual thing’. That is, we are not dealing with propositional truths with which we must either agree or disagree, but with four ‘true things’ or ‘realities’ whose nature, we are told, the Buddha finally understood on the night of his awakening.
(Rupert Gethin, The Foundations of Buddhism)

For a fuller discussion of sacca in SN56.11 see the attached paper by Peter Harvey.

The Four Ariya-saccas as ‘True Realities for the Spiritually Ennobled’ rather than ‘Noble Truths’ Concerning These
Harvey.pdf
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“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:22 pm the term ariya savaka doesn't even appear in those suttas. exactly what you think it proves?
same what joe told you before. Ordinary person doesn't recognize ariya. What is known is clan name and whatever idea one has about ariya is appropriated to it.
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