Mara's bribes

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Bundokji
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:47 pmFour out of five Māras are metaphorical. The one you seem to be singling out is the "Māra of afflictions," particularly of the affliction of greed. Certainly Māra "personally" might trouble some great contenplatives, but most often the fall comes from within, from one of the metaphorical Māras, such as the Māra of the Khandhas or Kilesas. I don't know if the "five Māras" is sūtric or abhidharmic. I don't think I've seen them outlined as such in a sutta or āgamasūtra, but my memory might be failing me.
I did not know that there are five Mara's, so thank you for that! The Mara i had in mind is the one that appears to advanced practitioners who are close to breaking away from sensuality. It is the one that the Ajahns i was listening to referred to. In the story of the lord Buddha's awakening, his encounter with Mara is portrayed as a last encounter before breaking free.

While the Jhana's are presented as a different/separate loka from Kamma, the progress in insight seems to coincide with higher degrees of control in the sensual realm. If Mara's realm ranks at the top of kamma loka, having this particular Mara as a final encounter makes sense. It might manifest as a power over natural elements, and it could be an independent element in nature.

Where can i read about the five Mara's? In the past, i read "letter from Mara" by Ven. Punnadhammo. He portrayed Mara as having ten armies resembling the fetters and hindrances.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Coëmgenu »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:01 pmWhere can i read about the five Mara's? In the past, i read "letter from Mara" by Ven. Punnadhammo. He portrayed Mara as having ten armies resembling the fetters and hindrances.
I don't actually know a Theravādin source text for the fivefold Mārology, but I do believe the five Māras figure in traditional Theravāda. Venerable Dhammanando or Robert or Ceisiwr might know.

Consider, if the armies represent the fetters and hindrances, then there's already an element of metaphor in that talk.
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It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
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form
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:47 pm
Bundokji wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:14 am Friends,

I encountered more than once reports that for meditators who try to go beyond the sensual realm, Mara tries to bribe them out of the fear of losing a customer. Usually, this is associated with having an object of desire appearing at one's "door steps".
Four out of five Māras are metaphorical. The one you seem to be singling out is the "Māra of afflictions," particularly of the affliction of greed. Certainly Māra "personally" might trouble some great contenplatives, but most often the fall comes from within, from one of the metaphorical Māras, such as the Māra of the Khandhas or Kilesas. I don't know if the "five Māras" is sūtric, commentarial, or abhidharmic. I don't think I've seen them outlined as such in a sutta or āgamasūtra, but my memory might be failing me. Māra metaphorically sends his daughters and armies after all Buddhists as a "Māra of the Conditioned."
Why would they expressed something metaphorically when using plain simple language will be a lot clearer?
form
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:47 pmFour out of five Māras are metaphorical. The one you seem to be singling out is the "Māra of afflictions," particularly of the affliction of greed. Certainly Māra "personally" might trouble some great contenplatives, but most often the fall comes from within, from one of the metaphorical Māras, such as the Māra of the Khandhas or Kilesas. I don't know if the "five Māras" is sūtric or abhidharmic. I don't think I've seen them outlined as such in a sutta or āgamasūtra, but my memory might be failing me.
I did not know that there are five Mara's, so thank you for that! The Mara i had in mind is the one that appears to advanced practitioners who are close to breaking away from sensuality. It is the one that the Ajahns i was listening to referred to. In the story of the lord Buddha's awakening, his encounter with Mara is portrayed as a last encounter before breaking free.

While the Jhana's are presented as a different/separate loka from Kamma, the progress in insight seems to coincide with higher degrees of control in the sensual realm. If Mara's realm ranks at the top of kamma loka, having this particular Mara as a final encounter makes sense. It might manifest as a power over natural elements, and it could be an independent element in nature.

Where can i read about the five Mara's? In the past, i read "letter from Mara" by Ven. Punnadhammo. He portrayed Mara as having ten armies resembling the fetters and hindrances.
It seems like there is only one mara at any one time according to the words of the Buddha.
form
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

santa100 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:28 pm
form wrote:I heard before a few Chinese Buddhists telling me after they accepted the three refuges, for a few months they have some scary encounters relating to Mara and his demons. I personally do not believe these stories.
As part of Mara's playbook, he usually sends the carrot first before giving the stick. Just like he first sent his three beautiful daughters to the Buddha before sending his army. That's why most of the time, a bhikkhu returns to lay life not due to some terrible hardships but because of some young voluptuous woman.
For monks yes. My monk friend jokingly said he is good in resisting such temptations.
Bundokji
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Bundokji »

form wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:27 pm It seems like there is only one mara at any one time according to the words of the Buddha.
Talking about time, the concept of time would have no meaning without our observations of space and other plants. Probably this is why, both god and Mara are always imagined to be somewhere in space. Considering that only the first two heavenly realms are connected to earth, it is plausible that Mara is an alien who delights in the creations of others.

Here is how art portrays the process of negotiating or getting bribed by Mara:

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
form
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:02 am
form wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:27 pm It seems like there is only one mara at any one time according to the words of the Buddha.
Talking about time, the concept of time would have no meaning without our observations of space and other plants. Probably this is why, both god and Mara are always imagined to be somewhere in space. Considering that only the first two heavenly realms are connected to earth, it is plausible that Mara is an alien who delights in the creations of others.

Here is how art portrays the process of negotiating or getting bribed by Mara:

I was giving some thoughts on time today. I would always take time as something very valid because the five aggregates were taught by the Buddha as past, present or future. And in a modern knowledge sense, our body is diurnal and there are four seasons. Our bodies are very sensitive to movements of the sun and moon.

Mara's dimensions should be beyond us although he is still limited by time as in there is only one Mara at any time. A past Mara, present one and a future one. Just that he seems to be everywhere and he is in everyone and everything in the desire realm.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Coëmgenu »

form wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:27 pmIt seems like there is only one mara at any one time according to the words of the Buddha.
There is only one "Māra the Godling" (Māradevaputta) at a time. The usages of Māra that metaphorically represent the khandhas, or all of conditioned existence, or death, is omnipresent. You can speak of him plural or singular, by my reckoning.

I think that a lot of modern people tend to conflate Māra with "the Devil," a character from Judeo-Christian folklore. Islam has a Devil too but I know nothing about them other than that they share the story of him refusing to bow to Adam which figures in some Christian versions of the story. Either way, the Devil sees all and works toward the ruin of all. Māra hates ascetics. He, to the best of my knowledge, is never depicted as ruining a worldling's life. Maybe I'm wrong?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
form
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:48 am
form wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:27 pmIt seems like there is only one mara at any one time according to the words of the Buddha.
There is only one "Māra the Godling" (Māradevaputta) at a time. The usages of Māra that metaphorically represent the khandhas, or all of conditioned existence, or death, is omnipresent. You can speak of him plural or singular, by my reckoning.

I think that a lot of modern people tend to conflate Māra with "the Devil," a character from Judeo-Christian folklore. Islam has a Devil too but I know nothing about them other than that they share the story of him refusing to bow to Adam which figures in some Christian versions of the story. Either way, the Devil sees all and works toward the ruin of all. Māra hates ascetics. He, to the best of my knowledge, is never depicted as ruining a worldling's life. Maybe I'm wrong?
Your explanation is very comprehensive. I think it covers all the angles and the forms he appeared in the nikaya.
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

Mara is a being. He disturb the Buddha throughout his life after enlightenment. So he can't be just greed, hatred and delusion.
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by sakka »

Māra doesn't have to lure monks from the path with volouptous women, just hang out with famous political people or ”spiritual” leaders in different sects when you're a monk and you're all good! No one will ever suspect anything…and when you're famous you can start denying rebirth, start teaching that there actually is a soul, that Māra is only the defilements in your own mind etc., that war can somehow be justified! - It is just endless what you can start promoting as a famous monk when you're friends with disciples to ”The Evil One” like one of Māra's special sects: The Theosophical Society

Many famous Theravadin monks, including Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sucitto. Ajahn Amaro, Bhante Dhammavuddho & Bhikkhu Bodhi frequently visits the Leadbeater-theosophists for interviews, lectures, hanging out etc.

One would think a Theravadin monk would disapprove of such an awful and false teaching like Leadbeater's given the actual teaching is full of nothing but distorted fantasies and obvious lies?
Also the fact that Leadbeater himself in court pleaded guilty to sexual abuse of young boys and even continued this practice his whole life one would think a monk would avoid such fools?

Nope: https://bswa.org/event/ajahn-brahm-visi ... inois-usa/
And have been doing so for many years at the various theosophical Leadbeater lodges…

”Bhikkhu Bodhi - Living the Best Life: The Buddha’s Answers to Life’s Urgent Questions” is a very recent youtube video by the theosophical society from february this year 2022.

I'm sure there are many more famous monks besides Ajahn Sucitto. Ajahn Amaro, Bhante Dhammavuddho who are doing the exact same thing.

In the suttas The Buddha repeatedly warns all monks/nuns that whoever enjoys fame, honour and gain as a monk Māra can do whatever he wants with. A real warning that famous monks clearly disregard when we see how many famous monks actually endorse Māra's teachings since they are clearly on good terms with the disciples to these awful and evil teachings…
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by TRobinson465 »

Unless you have psychic powers you probably wont see anything that Mara conjures up or the physical mara himself since he is a deva. But they tend to do stuff like send distracting and/or troublesome people your way when you're trying to practice, at retreats or whatnot. Possible encounter I had was a group of short term novices I was in charge of one time. Most of the group was actually quite great (for once :thinking: ) and were mostly there cuz they wanted to (as opposed to just being forced by thier parents, as is common in Thai culture) but one demon child's parents signed him up at the last minute. I'm pretty sure Mara sent him just to ruin the experience for the whole group.

From what ive been told. The best way to practice when you notice these unfortunate coincidences happening is to keep doing what your doing cuz its a sign your on the right track if Mara is putting in the effort to obstruct you.
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by thomaslaw »

According to Choong Mun-keat, Mara is an individual name and a deity in the early Indian cosmological or mythical tradition. Mara is already regarded as both the idea of evil death and a mythical deity in Brahmanism at the time of the Buddha. Mara is also presented in Mara Samyutta as threefold:
"(a) he is a real being, an evil deity of temptation (the tempter and lord of sensuality);
(b) he can be defeated only in a psychological sense, not by physical force; and
(c) he appears in the texts more as an actual deity than as a result (personification) of psychological projection."

It is "early Buddhist adaptation of general Indian religious beliefs about divine beings (devas), and their application to one particular type of divine being - Mara".

See pp. 40-2 in Choong Mun-keat, "A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Mara Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on Mara, the Evil One", The Indian International Journal of Buddhist Studies, vol.10, 2009, pp. 35-53.

https://www.academia.edu/42299965/A_com ... e_Evil_One
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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Aloka »

form wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:41 am A lot of talks about Mara. But has anyone encounter the manifestation of him as a physical being?
Here's Ajahn Amaro discussing Mara.




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Re: Mara's bribes

Post by DNS »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:09 am
JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:16 am On retreats and stays at monasteries, usually there's very gorgeous and single Buddhist women there too, whom I inevitably fall in love with. I suspect it's all been arranged by Mara to tempt us both! :rolleye:
This happened to me many years ago, and towards the end of the retreat, our eyes often met. We both...knew. We were waiting excitedly for the end when noble silence would end, we could chat, and then...maybe....

When we did finally get to chat, I found her to have a truly appalling personality: bigoted, dull, and full of stale clichés. I don't suppose she found me any more alluring. Had we exchanged phone numbers, I would have thrown my phone away and got a new number.

That's one of the retreats where I learnt a lot of Dhamma.
:D

These are known as "vipassana romances." Some have described long, drawn out stories while they are meditating on retreat where the mind wanders and develops long elaborate stories of them meeting the other person, getting married, having kids and even getting divorced.
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