Shame in sexual activity

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salayatananirodha
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Shame in sexual activity

Post by salayatananirodha »

I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?

I find myself feeling shame for soliciting other men for encounters that fall outside the norm but it’s hard to tell if that’s because I feel shame from societal norms or because of the dhamma.

I understand that sexual activity is not right action and that Brahmacariya is necessary to become enlightened, but I pretty much feel overwhelmed by desire and thus find restraint difficult
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by Mahabrahma »

Finding Sacred Marriage and a true devotion to your spouse Transcendental to mundane urges to gratify the senses, and being Maitri for your significant and not falling to desires may help you a lot. If you want to stay a householder or Lay Followers, these are the things to think about.

However, I am not saying your morals or perception is incorrect at the moment. You understand Right View, and you are a Buddhist. Namaste. :namaste:
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
TRobinson465
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by TRobinson465 »

There's nothing stating sexual activity within the confines of the third precept is bad. In fact commentaries only identify illicit sex as unwholesome kamma. It is a hindrance tho. Just like being attached to your belongings. Buddhism is not all or nothing, nibbana in this life or bust. Since you're not a monk I assume you it's not your priority above all else to enlighten. So don't feel sorry about falling back on sense desires acceptable for laypeople. Train yourself to improve and later you'll improve. Whether it's later in this life or the next.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Sam Vara
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by Sam Vara »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 pm I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?

I find myself feeling shame for soliciting other men for encounters that fall outside the norm but it’s hard to tell if that’s because I feel shame from societal norms or because of the dhamma.

I understand that sexual activity is not right action and that Brahmacariya is necessary to become enlightened, but I pretty much feel overwhelmed by desire and thus find restraint difficult
Restraint - in body, speech, and mind - is difficult for all but the enlightened, so you are far from being alone in that. It sounds as if having experienced or witnessed stigma regarding your special preferences, you have focused on sex as something especially problematic. Your question about "shame because of the Dhamma" is very interesting. It might be that the Buddha only set boundaries around certain sexual activities because they were, in his society, the ones which brought about shame and social disruption. He said nothing about gay sex, kinks, etc., and indeed all of the advice is around men avoiding certain proscribed classes of women.

Or you might want to consider why there are proscribed forms of sex anyway. They are the ones that have the potential to cause massive emotional damage. Many would say that if you are not being dishonest, cruel, exploitative, etc., then where is the harm?

I don't know what the answer is, to be honest. But I think you are asking the right questions. It might be good for you to read around hiri and ottappa, to get more of an insight into what actions would rightly trigger these two mental phenomena. It might be that you can shed any socially-generated sense of shame over the type of sex, and only then would you be ready for celibacy and a renunciation of all sex.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

In keeping with the above responses, I suggest it's more your broader libertine lifestyle that needs some serious reflection, rather than narrowing it down to issues of gender and kink. It's your life and you can do whatever you like with it, limited only by society's laws - the question is, what do you really want to do with this life? Having a foot in both camps will likely just tear you apart.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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justpractice
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by justpractice »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 pm I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?
It might prove more useful to reflect on what all shameful activity has in common. Or, regardless of societal norms or practices of restraint, ask yourself, “Would I ever feel shame in not engaging in sexual activity?” It’s not a matter of trying to figure out the circumstances that may or may not be adding to the sense of shame, it’s about discerning the possibility of non-shameful action that’s always there regardless of circumstance.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by SarathW »

It might be good for you to read around hiri and ottappa, to get more of an insight into what actions would rightly trigger these two mental phenomena.
It's your life and you can do whatever you like with it, limited only by society's laws - the question is, what do you really want to do with this life?
:goodpost:

Also consider the gratification, drawbacks, and escape from sensuality.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by santa100 »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 pm 1. I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?

2. I find myself feeling shame for soliciting other men for encounters that fall outside the norm but it’s hard to tell if that’s because I feel shame from societal norms or because of the dhamma.

3. I understand that sexual activity is not right action and that Brahmacariya is necessary to become enlightened, but I pretty much feel overwhelmed by desire and thus find restraint difficult
#1. There're already places that legalize doing your fun "activity" out in the open just like cats and dogs.

#2. I hope it's the latter instead of the former just in case #1.'s become societal norms everywhere anytime. And if DN 26 is true, then it won't be a question of if, but a question of when that time will come.

#3. Obviously that's the common homework for all of us puthujjanas. But by contemplating on #1. and #2., hopefully they'll give us some extra Samvega and strength to make progress on the Path.
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by Bundokji »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 pm I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?

I find myself feeling shame for soliciting other men for encounters that fall outside the norm but it’s hard to tell if that’s because I feel shame from societal norms or because of the dhamma.

I understand that sexual activity is not right action and that Brahmacariya is necessary to become enlightened, but I pretty much feel overwhelmed by desire and thus find restraint difficult
The shame of indulgence resembles the triumph of a lower property, even if society approves of it. The guilt of abstinence is due to its painful nature, which deems it unnecessary when insight is lacking.
“Bhikkhus, these two extremes should not be followed by one who has gone forth into homelessness. What two? The pursuit of sensual happiness in sensual pleasures, which is low, vulgar, the way of worldlings, ignoble, unbeneficial; and the pursuit of self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, unbeneficial.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:01 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 pm I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?

I find myself feeling shame for soliciting other men for encounters that fall outside the norm but it’s hard to tell if that’s because I feel shame from societal norms or because of the dhamma.

I understand that sexual activity is not right action and that Brahmacariya is necessary to become enlightened, but I pretty much feel overwhelmed by desire and thus find restraint difficult
The shame of indulgence resembles the triumph of a lower property, even if society approves of it. The guilt of abstinence is due to its painful nature, which deems it unnecessary when insight is lacking.
“Bhikkhus, these two extremes should not be followed by one who has gone forth into homelessness. What two? The pursuit of sensual happiness in sensual pleasures, which is low, vulgar, the way of worldlings, ignoble, unbeneficial; and the pursuit of self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, unbeneficial.
Isn't this for monks or the eight preceptors?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:54 pm Isn't this for monks or the eight preceptors?
Historically, this was the first sermon by the Buddha, directed to the group of five, who were ascetics without the institutional sense of the word. Institutions beget a sect leader, where teachings become comparable/contrasted with other sects, including the precepts, vinaya rules ...etc.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Dan74
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by Dan74 »

I agree with pretty much all of the above.

Why not find a partner you actually like and who has similar preferences? I'm sure having the buzz of new encounters is exciting and all, but it's not possible to develop restraint that way, is it? One can still practice though and perhaps things will change in time.
_/|\_
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by justindesilva »

Dan74 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:29 am I agree with pretty much all of the above.

Why not find a partner you actually like and who has similar preferences? I'm sure having the buzz of new encounters is exciting and all, but it's not possible to develop restraint that way, is it? One can still practice though and perhaps things will change in time.
Lord budda preached the Bhariyasutta to detail that there are seven types of wives which are kller type (wadhaka) , sister type ,
mother type , deva type , stealer type etc .
It is important to find the quality of your partner before marriage rather than giving preference to sex . In parabhava sutta lord budda mentioned not to marry with great age gaps .. Then lord budda also in parabhava sutta mentions not to go on in search of others wives and prostitutes as it counts to down fall in life here and after ..
Long ago in asia marriage was a family concern mostly .
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by salayatananirodha »

Dan74 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:29 am I agree with pretty much all of the above.

Why not find a partner you actually like and who has similar preferences? I'm sure having the buzz of new encounters is exciting and all, but it's not possible to develop restraint that way, is it? One can still practice though and perhaps things will change in time.
i really want that.
i'm not 100% sure it's in line with dhamma, but it seems like virtuous people generally accept that having a committed relationship is not a bad thing and that it is superior to hooking up at random.
to me, it would certainly help balance the raging wildfire of lust with more ascetic ideals. (ideally, i'd love to be celibate and still aim for that one day)
SarathW wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:54 pm Isn't this for monks or the eight preceptors?
i believe avoiding extremes in any case is good. lay people still make an effort to restrain themselves. in suttas, there are laity who take the five precepts with full celibacy and they experience great fruit as a result. my efforts are to practice in a sustainable way that brings about long-term results (i've tried intensified spurts of practice and experienced burnout)
justpractice wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:21 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 pm I’ve been thinking about this. What if we had a society that was open and accepting to sexuality outside the norm? For example, lgbt, polyamory, kink, etc? What would the shame be in sexual activity?
It might prove more useful to reflect on what all shameful activity has in common. Or, regardless of societal norms or practices of restraint, ask yourself, “Would I ever feel shame in not engaging in sexual activity?” It’s not a matter of trying to figure out the circumstances that may or may not be adding to the sense of shame, it’s about discerning the possibility of non-shameful action that’s always there regardless of circumstance.
i feel bad in a lot of ways, basically sharing and receiving pictures, having explicit conversations, and worrying about if people i know in everyday life will find out. it's already known that i'm gay but as far as having an excessive interest in bdsm and such things i'd be embarrassed if for some reason that information left the apps i use. not enough for me to stop what i'm doing, but i feel lots of shame and dread. i also worry about accidentally sending the wrong photos to people, like if i mean to send a picture of the work schedule and instead clicked on something nsfw. i've experienced life without these apps and all, and it was a liberating feeling. i'd like to gradually make my way back to that.
when i reflect on it tho, i don't think there's anything particularly wrong with one mode of sexuality vs another; it's all lust. might even be some advantages (for example, not engaging in anal sex is good for safety reasons). anyway, apologies for being more detailed than others might want to read, i just struggle with these issues from day to day and no one to talk about it with.

someone mentioned DN 26, and that is one of my favorites, next to DN 27. in that, sexual activity starts out in beings as a very shameful thing altogether. at the end of the day, whether you like a man or a woman or whatever you like to do with them, it is mostly all the same. i would like to have wholesome dhamma shame yet get rid of society based shame for having different interests
hopefully you can understand what i'm getting at about this topic
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Dan74
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Re: Shame in sexual activity

Post by Dan74 »

I think Buddhists fixate too much on sex and this generates a great deal of aversion that is just as bad as grasping and in fact promotes it, as we swing between those two.

It is far more useful IME to practice and cultivate some mindfulness and insight, rather than worrying about celibacy etc.

The underpinning to successful practice is to earnestly practice basic sila, including avoiding hurting yourself and others. But of course, there will be slipups, that's normal.
_/|\_
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