How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:11 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:40 pm "Realize that ultimately you cannot control your thoughts, emotions and experiences." Experience any feeling or emotion at will, desire. Right?
Taming/training and control are two different things. You can train/tame a horse and yes then control it to some extent yes but not to the extent that the horse is now your "self". The mind is the same.

For thoughts to really be a product of my "self" I'd expect to have full control of them, i'd expect to be able to sit on the meditation cushion for an hour and have no thoughts randomly arise that I conciously didn't choose to think. This doesn't happen, and this is one of the first things people learn when starting a meditation practice.
Still, it's not entirely clear.
We are told, "Everything is conditioned, all thoughts come according to causes, you have no control over thoughts."
And at the same time, "Practice the path, make efforts, cultivate good thoughts and remove negative ones, control thoughts."
Contradiction.
It turns out that after all we can choose between thoughts and think the thoughts we want.
The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Since an uncontrolled response to the sensory input stimulates the latent defilements, what is evidently needed to prevent them from arising is control over the senses. Thus the Buddha teaches, as the discipline for keeping the hindrances in check, an exercise called the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya-samvara):

When he perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odor with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, or an object with the mind, he apprehends neither the sign nor the particulars. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome states, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses.[40]

Restraint of the senses does not mean denial of the senses, retreating into a total withdrawal from the sensory world. This is impossible, and even if it could be achieved, the real problem would still not be solved; for the defilements lie in the mind, not in the sense organs or objects. The key to sense control is indicated by the phrase "not apprehending the sign or the particulars." The "sign" (nimitta) is the object's general appearance insofar as this appearance is grasped as the basis for defiled thoughts; the "particulars" (anubyanjana) are its less conspicuous features. If sense control is lacking, the mind roams recklessly over the sense fields. First it grasps the sign, which sets the defilements into motion, then it explores the particulars, which permits them to multiply and thrive.

Whereas this first of the five methods for expelling the hindrances involves a one-to-one alignment between a hindrance and its remedy, the other four utilize general approaches. The second marshals the forces of shame (hiri) and moral dread (ottappa) to abandon the unwanted thought: one reflects on the thought as vile and ignoble or considers its undesirable consequences until an inner revulsion sets in which drives the thought away. The third method involves a deliberate diversion of attention. When an unwholesome thought arises and clamours to be noticed, instead of indulging it one simply shuts it out by redirecting one's attention elsewhere, as if closing one's eyes or looking away to avoid an unpleasant sight. The fourth method uses the opposite approach. Instead of turning away from the unwanted thought, one confronts it directly as an object, scrutinizes its features, and investigates its source. When this is done the thought quiets down and eventually disappears. For an unwholesome thought is like a thief: it only creates trouble when its operation is concealed, but put under observation it becomes tame. The fifth method, to be used only as a last resort, is suppression — vigorously restraining the unwholesome thought with the power of the will in the way a strong man might throw a weaker man to the ground and keep him pinned there with his weight.

By applying these five methods with skill and discretion, the Buddha says, one becomes a master of all the pathways of thought. One is no longer the subject of the mind but its master. Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think. Even if unwholesome thoughts occasionally arise, one can dispel them immediately, just as quickly as a red-hot pan will turn to steam a few chance drops of water.
santa100
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by santa100 »

Konstantin Sol wrote:We are told, "Everything is conditioned, all thoughts come according to causes, you have no control over thoughts."
And at the same time, "Practice the path, make efforts, cultivate good thoughts and remove negative ones, control thoughts."
Contradiction.
It doesn't have to be a contradiction. Conditionality and free-will can cooperate and reinforce each other. That math genius classmate in your 5th grade class could solve complex math problems ten times faster than you and seemingly without any effort while you and the rest of the class struggled. Seems like s/he doesn't have any control over his innate talent. But looking deeper into kamma and conditionality, he must've cultivated this skillset since many many lifetimes thru his own sweat and labor! Similarly in the area of spirituality, one simply just not all of a sudden does good deeds or think good thoughts. One who's cultivated harming and hateful thoughts since countless past lifes would naturally manifest unwholesome behaviors in the current lifetime, which seems they have no control over that. But they do have the free will to start doing good thing in this life to start reversing that ingrained unwholesome tendency! If there was zero free will, the Buddha would've never taught The Four Right Exertions.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Great!

"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for:
" the sake of the non-arising [anuppādāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[ii] ... the sake of the abandonment [pahānāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
"[iii] ... the sake of the arising [uppādāya] of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[iv] ... the maintenance [ṭhitiyā], non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen."[2]

That is, we have no choice what thoughts come to mind from the external environment, from life. In the process of processing information from the external environment. And what thoughts will come to our mind from the subconscious.
But we always have a choice whether to think these thoughts or not, to follow their lead or not. Whether to replace them with good thoughts from our memory. This is the work of the mind, rational thinking, the struggle of the mind with emotions, temptations.
That is, we ourselves decide which thoughts we choose. What thoughts to take from memory at the current moment, to use in life.

Thank you, everything is clear now!
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:45 pm Still, it's not entirely clear.
We are told, "Everything is conditioned, all thoughts come according to causes, you have no control over thoughts."
And at the same time, "Practice the path, make efforts, cultivate good thoughts and remove negative ones, control thoughts."
Contradiction.
It turns out that after all we can choose between thoughts and think the thoughts we want.
How were the conditions created through?

Conditions are created by past actions, thoughts created today ore conditioned by thoughts you entertained or actions you did in the past.

Think of them as seeds, you plant seeds at at some time in future something grows depending on conditions, you can't control it, or make it happen, or predict the exact time, all you can do is try to promote the ideal conditions.

You can't choose the thoughts you're going to have today but you can condition kinds of thoughts you'd prefer to have today so there is more chance you'll have them in future.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:06 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:45 pm Still, it's not entirely clear.
We are told, "Everything is conditioned, all thoughts come according to causes, you have no control over thoughts."
And at the same time, "Practice the path, make efforts, cultivate good thoughts and remove negative ones, control thoughts."
Contradiction.
It turns out that after all we can choose between thoughts and think the thoughts we want.
How were the conditions created through?

Conditions are created by past actions, thoughts created today ore conditioned by thoughts you entertained or actions you did in the past.

Think of them as seeds, you plant seeds at at some time in future something grows depending on conditions, you can't control it, or make it happen, or predict the exact time, all you can do is try to promote the ideal conditions.

You can't choose the thoughts you're going to have today but you can condition kinds of thoughts you'd prefer to have today so there is more chance you'll have them in future.
Right. We cannot choose what thoughts come to mind. But we can decide what to do with them. But even at this moment, we can also stop thinking bad thoughts by an effort of will. Apply antidotes.
And just think good thoughts.
In my opinion it is very clear:
"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for:
" the sake of the non-arising [anuppādāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[ii] ... the sake of the abandonment [pahānāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
"[iii] ... the sake of the arising [uppādāya] of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[iv] ... the maintenance [ṭhitiyā], non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen."[2]
The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Even if unwholesome thoughts occasionally arise, one can dispel them immediately, just as quickly as a red-hot pan will turn to steam a few chance drops of water.
If the thought of killing comes to me now, I will in any case be faced with a choice whether to do it or not. Right now. Free will is now. I have such an opportunity, such a choice. It is up to me to decide what thought to think and what not. Here and now. Right? Another question is whether I have enough strength and skills and experience for this.
There is always a choice. Well, it's obvious.
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:52 pm If the thought of killing comes to me now, I will in any case be faced with a choice whether to do it or not. Right now. Free will is now. I have such an opportunity, such a choice. It is up to me to decide what thought to think and what not. Here and now. Right? Another question is whether I have enough strength and skills and experience for this.
There is always a choice. Well, it's obvious.
To some extent. If a ship does a 1 degrees course change at the beginning of its trip it will end up hundreds of miles away from where it was originally heading after it has crossed the ocean, if it does a 1 degrees course change at the end of its trip it won't make much difference.

Your choices are conditioned to some extent but that doesn't mean you have no choice, making the right or wrong choice now affects your future choices.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:03 pm
To some extent. If a ship does a 1 degrees course change at the beginning of its trip it will end up hundreds of miles away from where it was originally heading after it has crossed the ocean, if it does a 1 degrees course change at the end of its trip it won't make much difference.
Agree.
I'm talking about something else. There is choice and there is free will. Here's what I'm talking about.
There is no determinism. But there is no absolute freedom either. There are just options for how to do it. A, B, C. Hence the potential for controlling thoughts and actions. Let go of the bad and increase the good. Possibility of choice.

Accordingly, thoughts come, and we decide what to do with them, how to respond. Therefore, we do not control thoughts. But we can switch, react or not react, think other thoughts. This is how we develop. And plus, we improve the appearance of good thoughts in the future.
Right?
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:23 pm Agree.
I'm talking about something else. There is choice and there is free will. Here's what I'm talking about.
There is no determinism. But there is no absolute freedom either. There are just options for how to do it. A, B, C. Hence the potential for controlling thoughts and actions. Let go of the bad and increase the good.

Accordingly, thoughts come, and we decide what to do with them, how to respond. Therefore, we do not control thoughts. But we can switch, react or not react, think other thoughts. This is how we develop. And plus, we improve the appearance of good thoughts in the future.
Right?
I think you've got it.

I wouldn't recommend attempting to control of suppress current thoughts, unless they are going down a very bad road, better in the past to have conditioned positive thoughts so this problem didn't arise now. Either way our ability to respond appropriately now is conditioned from what we did/chose in the past.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

I wouldn't recommend attempting to control of suppress current thoughts, unless they are going down a very bad road, better in the past to have conditioned positive thoughts so this problem didn't arise now. Either way our ability to respond appropriately now is conditioned from what we did/chose in the past.
Gotta think about it

But in any case, everyone has a choice, always, and the opportunity to making the right efforts is present.
But they do have the free will to start doing good thing in this life to start reversing that ingrained unwholesome tendency! If there was zero free will, the Buddha would've never taught
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:19 pm Great!

"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for:
" the sake of the non-arising [anuppādāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[ii] ... the sake of the abandonment [pahānāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
"[iii] ... the sake of the arising [uppādāya] of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[iv] ... the maintenance [ṭhitiyā], non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen."[2]

That is, we have no choice what thoughts come to mind from the external environment, from life. In the process of processing information from the external environment. And what thoughts will come to our mind from the subconscious.
But we always have a choice whether to think these thoughts or not, to follow their lead or not. Whether to replace them with good thoughts from our memory. This is the work of the mind, rational thinking, the struggle of the mind with emotions, temptations.
That is, we ourselves decide which thoughts we choose. What thoughts to take from memory at the current moment, to use in life.

Thank you, everything is clear now!


Dear santa100, please rate if I understand "The Right Effort" and "The Noble Eightfold Path" by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:37 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:23 pm Agree.
I'm talking about something else. There is choice and there is free will. Here's what I'm talking about.
There is no determinism. But there is no absolute freedom either. There are just options for how to do it. A, B, C. Hence the potential for controlling thoughts and actions. Let go of the bad and increase the good.

Accordingly, thoughts come, and we decide what to do with them, how to respond. Therefore, we do not control thoughts. But we can switch, react or not react, think other thoughts. This is how we develop. And plus, we improve the appearance of good thoughts in the future.
Right?
I think you've got it.

I wouldn't recommend attempting to control of suppress current thoughts, unless they are going down a very bad road, better in the past to have conditioned positive thoughts so this problem didn't arise now. Either way our ability to respond appropriately now is conditioned from what we did/chose in the past.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:49 pm
But in any case, everyone has a choice, always, and the opportunity to making the right efforts is present.
That is, I mean that the very fact of choice is always present. And, accordingly, the possibility of control. There is always an opportunity to make a choice, even if its impact will be small at first. Otherwise there would be no salvation.
Well, actually you wrote about the same
We can influence the process, the teaching of the Buddha would be pointless if that were not the case.
Causes and conditions lead to what we experience but we have a degree of choice in how we react, and we can create conditions for better choices in future.
Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future.
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:38 pm That is, I mean that the very fact of choice is always present. And, accordingly, the possibility of control. There is always an opportunity to make a choice, even if its impact will be small at first. Otherwise there would be no salvation.
Well, actually you wrote about the same
Yes. I just wouldn't use the word control.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Management fit?

"One is no longer the subject of the mind but its master. Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think".

In general, a manager, a master.
I don't see much difference with control.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

I understand. You mean that thoughts cannot be given absolute control, which would allow them to be called "mine" and "self". I agree, you can call it "significant influence". In general, we can have a significant influence on thoughts as we practice. Ok?
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:58 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:41 pm And what should be done?
Observe experiences as they arise and pass away, see their impermanence. Observe and see that no impermanent experience can provide you with lasting happiness, in fact trying to manipulate experience in this way causes more problems than its worth. See that ultimately you can't control your thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Therefore they are not self, let go of identification with and attachment to them.
So we can't control it. but we can influence. so that the mind naturally reacts for the better
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