What is the consciousness element

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salayatananirodha
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What is the consciousness element

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false wrote:“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’
What is this consciousness element
Is it the same as consciousness in dependent origination?
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SarathW
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by SarathW »

In Buddhism, there are six elements.
Four great elements (air, water, fire, and earth), space, and consciousness.
According to Buddhism, the consciousness is conditioned, the same as other elements
In the same way, fire has many shades and colors consciousness has many shades and colors.
Hence I would say the consciousness mentioned in DO is the same but it is the shade of rebirth consciousness.
Every aspect of DO is a different shade of consciousness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:44 am
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false wrote:“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’
What is this consciousness element
Is it the same as consciousness in dependent origination?
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by asahi »

The 6 elements teachings are considered late by scholars for your info . There are only consciousness per the 5 aggregates .


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salayatananirodha
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by salayatananirodha »

why this is important to me is the concept of viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ
i understand it's basically the most refined point in the dhamma? but
it's used a lot to substantiate the idea of eternal consciousness.
i forget which sutta but it explicitly states all the elements are subject to dissolution.
i guess i tend to be more on the side of 'going out like a lamp' vs 'measureless like the great ocean' and i'd like to find balance between those two points
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:44 am
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false wrote:“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’
What is this consciousness element
Is it the same as consciousness in dependent origination?
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by cappuccino »

salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:41 pm i'd like to find balance between those two points
Middle way


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Goofaholix
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by Goofaholix »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:44 am What is this consciousness element
Is it the same as consciousness in dependent origination?
I don't really think it makes sense to read it that way, so consciousness is an element but other aspects of dependent origination are not? other aggregates are not?

It seems to me that here this is being used as a blanket term for anything mental, just as the earth element is a blanket term for solidity etc
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by confusedlayman »

Conventional term used to describe aspect of experience. ?
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by Gwi II »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:44 am
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false wrote:“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’
What is this consciousness element
Is it the same as consciousness in dependent origination?
Luminous mind (pabhassara citto).
Just read Visuddhimaggo 🙏
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SarathW
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:43 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:44 am
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false wrote:“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements.’
What is this consciousness element
Is it the same as consciousness in dependent origination?
Yes.
Yes, but it is called the rebirth consciousness an aspect of consciousness.
It is accurate to say that the whole Dependent Origination is all about the consciousness as a whole.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What is the consciousness element

Post by pegembara »

Then there remains only consciousness, purified and bright. What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes: ‘This is pleasant’; one cognizes: ‘This is painful’; one cognizes: ‘This is neither-painful-nor-pleasant.’ In dependence on a contact to be felt as pleasant there arises a pleasant feeling. When one feels a pleasant feeling, one understands: ‘I feel a pleasant feeling.’ One understands: ‘With the cessation of that same contact to be felt as pleasant, its corresponding feeling—the pleasant feeling that arose in dependence on that contact to be felt as pleasant—ceases and subsides.’ In dependence on a contact to be felt as painful there arises a painful feeling. When one feels a painful feeling, one understands: ‘I feel a painful feeling.’ One understands: ‘With the cessation of that same contact to be felt as painful, its corresponding feeling—the painful feeling that arose in dependence on that contact to be felt as painful—ceases and subsides.’ In dependence on a contact to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant there arises a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. When one feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, one understands: ‘I feel a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.’ One understands: ‘With the cessation of that same contact to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, its corresponding feeling—the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling that arose in dependence on that contact to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant—ceases and subsides.’ Bhikkhu, just as from the contact and friction of two fire-sticks heat is generated and fire is produced, and with the separation and disjunction of those two fire-sticks the corresponding heat ceases and subsides; so too, in dependence on a contact to be felt as pleasant…to be felt as painful…to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant there arises a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling… One understands: ‘With the cessation of that same contact to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, its corresponding feeling…ceases and subsides.’

“Then there remains only equanimity, purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant. Etc
This 'consciousness' is a description of what is being directly experienced. Then comes equanimity, infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception until reaching cessation of perception and feeling.
“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body…a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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