The "dangers" of dry insight

[pudai]

When I used to be "plagued" by internal thoughts; Let's face it; removing them is the goal... not knowing what they are(attachment)... their true nature(arise from contact; Just like the "oneness" of samadhi) or not knowing when to stop(the thoughts of other becoming known or simply put not-self).

I got into the habit of reversing the wheel or thinking them backwards from their arising and then it became automatic leading to all past lives being known... Then they just vanished altogether... The not-self thoughts(those of others) can't be reversed but its same as pointing a remote at a TV or directing the mind to another like a meditation object to hear them.

But; as Gotama stated such a thing is a hindrance since it's volition it has kamma... meaning the mind may be free but the body is not only due to the subtle attachment to others thoughts now since one does not have them any longer... keeping the subtle body active in directing thought has kamma which will keep giving birth to a gross body to suffer with. Of course knowing this with regular thoughts of beginning sitting practice of ignore the pain don't move keep the tip of the tongue at the roof of the mouth etc. it is sort of the same as dreaming consciousness but you know you are fully awake and aware when it is happening... abuse of the senses and others; Is the typical result instead of dropping that tendency that can grow into a habit sidetracking one away from the true goal.(something I'm still practicing removing; having ignorantly gotten attached to it).

It is a hall mark of Theravada to have the four immeasurable for oneself first... When the body and mind are pushed into a shape that others are familiar with it takes time to adapt to it and it's easy to get disheartened etc. however know that after stream-entry(jhana attainment) one is destined to eventually reach the end goal... It as a hallmark of Mahayana to start putting the goal off after jhana and returning to being a householder... It is also a hallmark to simply have faith and practice; the four immeasurables towards monastics which is not really any different than monotheism. When the four immeasurables seem to come from the four supports(preceptor, Abbot/Abbotess, family donor, dhamma? Expecting all of that to pay off; Then that stress can easily lead to abandoning the dhamma, seeking a name or wealth to pay them back as a sort of metta then the idea of hermit arises... where one may think to oneself... I can go find a cave

[acessoaoinsight]

Satipatthana does strengthen sila, but sila (and sense restraint) is still required prerequisite for complete and successful satipatthana.

Amazing that no one ever mentions with clarity that stopping thinking is essential in order do develop samadhi. Without samadhi there is no vipassana. Those are the teachings of the Forest Tradition Ajahns in Thailand. Quite simple and obvious but always avoided by most practitioners in the countries of the West.

[auto]

I’m not sure I’d call Mahasi technique dry insight, it requires strong samadhi but on changing phenomena rather than a single object.

One can check the insight what occur and perhaps can already understand them. A stage prior that is to purify the mind by insight practice that the mind would stick to one object and not wander, if wander, then note it and bring it back, that practice will purify the mind, because mind is forced to stick with the object noted*(noting has different meaning from its common meaning, for example simply being aware of an object does mean noting per mahasi)..

Purification of View
When the mind is thus made pure, it will be clear, being able to
recognise sense-objects distinctly. This clarity brings one to the
realisation that the noting mind is distinct from the sense-objects that
are being noted. After repeated exercises, a meditator will arrive at
the conclusion that there are only two things in this entire process
of noting — the knowing mind and the object known.
At this stage,
knowledge regarding the true nature of phenomena through analysis
of the aggregates into mind and matter, which means analytical
knowledge of body and mind (nāmarūpapariccheda ñāṇa) has been
developed. Once this knowledge becomes mature, purification of
view (diṭṭhi visuddhi) is achieved.

cool thing about bahiya sutta,

When a person sees an object, he or she does not stop there. He
or she does not just see it. He or she goes further, and lets the mind
dwell on things incidental to the act of seeing, for instance, on the
shape and form of the thing seen, considering whether it is desirable
or repugnant, and reacting with feelings of pain or pleasure according
to the nature of the object. Naturally, he or she is pleased when it
gives pleasure, but when seeing what is considers to be ugly, he or
she becomes not only disconcerted, but also disgusted and angry.
Even when he or she is indifferent to it, the fact remains that ego has
arisen. “I see it,” he or she thinks; and that “I” appears permanent.

does the followers of Mahasi think the same about it?

“Bāhiya, since you insist, I now urge you to practise this:
when you see, just see it; when you hear, just hear it; when
you know, just know it; and when you think, just think it.”
..
This is the insight method known as “diṭṭhe
diṭṭhamaaṃ” (just see as you see it, and nothing more).

[auto]

Some thoughts:
Guarding the sense doors in Mahasi technique could be about noting phenomena at the sense doors. Seem lacking the theory of attabhava with its akusala dhamma which need to be guarded from letting it to arise. Can mere noting fulfill that?

This is how Nanda guards the sense doors.
Tatridaṁ, bhikkhave, nandassa indriyesu guttadvāratāya hoti.
If he has to look to the east, he wholeheartedly concentrates before looking, thinking:
Sace, bhikkhave, nandassa puratthimā disā āloketabbā hoti, sabbaṁ cetasā samannāharitvā nando puratthimaṁ disaṁ āloketi:
‘When I look to the east, bad, unskillful qualities of desire and aversion will not overwhelm me.’
‘evaṁ me puratthimaṁ disaṁ ālokayato nābhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssavissantī’ti.
In this way he’s aware of the situation.
Itiha tattha sampajāno hoti.

I need retract what i said above

Bāhiya, being endowed with perfections (pāramī), gained insight
as he listened to what the Buddha taught. When he saw an object,
he noted just what he saw and did nothing more.

As he watched the
phenomenon as it occurred, nothing arose in his mind beyond the
fact that he saw. He did not, as he watched the phenomenon, think
to himself, “I see it. This is my self who is seeing it.” As his mind got
eed om aachment, egoistic pride, and wrong views, together
with the notion of self, were dispelled.

I wonder what the Sutta an8.9 is about when it says about concentrating/thinking beforehand the act of looking. hmm

[acessoaoinsight]

Sankharas
When Sankhara stops, suffering ends. Sankharas are concocting, fabrications, formations, criations of the mind. How does that happen? This doesn't require something extreme, such as dying. Rather, we put an end to the fabricating in our minds.

Just experience whatever objects present themselves to the senses without creating feelings of liking and disliking, then there won't be any problem. If there is wisdom, the sankharas that occurs through liking and disliking can end.

If such sankharas doesn't stop, there will be clinging to pleasure and aversion to pain, with dukkha created by that clinging and resisting. Hence, sankharas are itself dukkha. Dukkha is inherent in the sankharas because its continual change and transformation (anicca) leaves no freedom and no peace. From liking and disliking we fabricate greed, anger, hatred, fear, anxiety, longing, jealousy, envy, and so on and on in our human hearts.

The Buddha referred to the absence of sankharas as "nibbanam paramam suññam" (nibbana is supremely empty). Nibbana is the ultimate emptiness because it is free of kilesas, free of clinging, free of everything problematic, and free of dukkha. Yet it is nothing at all. It is pure emptiness, the true essence of Dhamma.

The Pali texts also record the Buddha saying "nibbanam paramam sukkham" (nibbana is the ultimate happiness), in more worldly language, easier for worldly people to understand. People are attracted to happiness. Saying that nibbana is the final end of dukkha doesn't interest people so much; it doesn't sound useful to them. Saying that nibbana is the ultimate happiness interests them much more. Hence, the Buddha sometimes described nibbana as the supreme happiness, but not often. In fact, this saying occurs just twice in the original texts, while descriptions of nibbana as being the final end of dukkha are found throughout them, expressing the deeper truth of Dhamma Language.

When sankharas stops, dukkha stops. Sankharas are itself dukkha. Sankharas occurs because of avijja. The wise say that nibbana is the end of dukkha - that is, nonfabricating.

Reminding that to solve some mundane problem or difficulty that has arisen, it makes perfect sense for the mind to use all its resources to find a solution, that is, thoughts (sankharas) based on knowledge and intelligence. The sankharas that lead to dukkha have their origin in the mental proliferation based on the contact in the senses.

Ajahn Buddhadasa

All Sankharas are impermanent, their nature is to arise and decay.
Once arisen they quench, their stilling is happiness (DN16)

Sankhara Paramam Dukkha - fabrications are supreme dukkha.
Dhp 203

[robertk]

Amazing that no one ever mentions with clarity that stopping thinking is essential in order do develop samadhi. Without samadhi there is no vipassana. Those are the teachings of the Forest Tradition Ajahns in Thailand. Quite simple and obvious but always avoided by most practitioners in the countries of the West.

.... The sankharas that lead to dukkha have their origin in the mental proliferation based on the contact in the senses.
Ajahn Buddhadasa

I couldn't find the quote from Buddhadasa? But anyway here is something from him on vipassana:

Handbook for Mankind

INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD

introspection. One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of
concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and
appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration
resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than
can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that
highly developed concentration may result. While the mind is fully
concentrated, it is likely to be experiencing such a satisfying kind
of bliss and well- being that the meditator may become attached to
it, or imagine it to be the Fruit of the Path. Naturally occurring
concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in
introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages
inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training.

In the Tipitaka, there are numerous references to people attaining
naturally all states of Path and Fruit. This generally came about in
the presence of the Buddha himself but also happened later with
other teachers. These people did not go into the forest and sit,
assiduously practicing concentration on certain objects in the way
described in later manuals.

Clearly no organized effort was involved when arahantship was
attained by the first five disciples of the Buddha on hearing the
Discourse on Non - selfhood, or by the one thousand hermits on
hearing the Fire Sermon. In these cases, keen, penetrating insight
came about quite naturally. These examples clearly show that natural
concentration is liable to develop of its own accord while one is
attempting to understand clearly some question, and that the
resulting insight, as long as it is firmly established must be quite
intense and stable. It happens naturally, automatically in just the
same way as the mind becomes concentrated the moment we set about
doing arithmetic. Likewise in firing a gun, when we take aim, the
mind automatically becomes concentrated and steady. This is how
naturally occurring concentration comes about. We normally overlook
it completely because it does not appear the least bit magical,
miraculous, or awe inspiring. But through the power of just this
naturally occurring concentration, most of us could actually attain
liberation. We could attain the Fruit of the Path, Nirvana,
arahantship, just by means of natural concentration.

So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is
something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. We
have to do everything we can to cultivate and develop it, to make it
function perfectly and yield the appropriate results, just as did
most of the people who succeeded in becoming arahants, none of whom
knew anything of modern concentration techniques.

It is not a case of the mind's being rendered silent, hard and
rocklike. Nothing like that happens at all. The body feels normal,
but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and
introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly
still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to
know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the
very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image,
quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that,
one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated
mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of
unawareness and is of no use for insight. Deep CONCENTRATION is a
major obstacle to insight practice.."""

[suspence772]

First, I think it's necessary to point out that these feelings of indifference, lust, doubts, etc. all seem to come-up on their own. I realized a while ago that my thoughts that arise are completely out of my control and I can't influence their inception. I'm not engaging in discursive thinking about these things purposefully with the intent of fantasizing about them, but they show their faces regardless of how dedicated I am in my sessions. I can understand the idea of silencing these thoughts, but I try to recognize them early enough when they're just mere intents and traces of reality before they really take shape in my mind. I would say that "silencing my thoughts" is my intention with every sit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are all these just sankhara showing face? I understand I'm putting a label on them and choosing to interpret them in the way I see fit, but I've been trying to just see them for what they are as described in the Kesamuttisutta referenced earlier. This was why I asked earlier if this is something to just notice and move onward, instead of my aforementioned dwelling in their self-fabricated significance. I'm starting to understand that there's so much more than just being mindful - one must also be determined and draw the distinction between skillful and unskillful qualities. What confused me was that I felt that discerning these qualities was something to just note away and let go like everything else. I think I now understand that I still have to be mindful of everything, but also with some direction towards skillful means. I now see this as Right View (Sammādiṭṭhisutta, MN 9), and something I've overlooked this whole time.

I'm going to spend more time seeing how much more of my practices strays from the Noble Eightfold Path instead of grinding away the hours in meditation. Thanks again!

[Goofaholix]

Its good you've realised that you need to draw the distinction between skillful and unskillful qualities, so you can develop the skillful and learn to let go of the unskillful. I did this practiced for years think I had to note everything that was unskillful rather than actually deal with any of it.

I think you just have to monitor yourself and gauge how much negativity you can continue to just note, at times you will better off to change to practices that enhance faith or wellbeing for a while.

[robertk]

I follow the teachings of the Ajahns of the Forest Tradition. Disciples of Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Maha Boowa: Suchart, Martin, Anan, Dtun, Kalyano. In order to achieve samadhi and develop vipassana/pañña, all of them teach that what has to be achieved first is silencing the thoughts, which is the key to develop samadhi. Some of them emphasize jhanas while others mention a level of samadhi, which is a mind calm, controlled and without thinking. Samadhi is the condition for Vipassana/Pañña.

You might be able to add some comments to this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=44842

[acessoaoinsight]

The body feels normal, but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and
introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly
still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to
know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the
very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image,
quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that,
one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated
mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of
unawareness and is of no use for insight. Deep CONCENTRATION is a
major obstacle to insight practice.."""

Exactly, deep samadhi or jhanas are not the adequate condition for investigation. A level of samadhi (depending how much each practitioner can achieve) which is sufficient for Vipassana/Pañña is adequate. But to achieve any level of samadhi - "perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained" - one has to silence the thoughts. But of course to develop vipassana/pañña one has to think. But it will be a level of controlled thinking to focus on the 3 characteristics of phenomena. My experience is that this investigation works better focusing on the ayatanas and paying attention to sankharas to avoid proliferation.

[robertk]

A level of samadhi (depending how much each practitioner can achieve) which is sufficient for Vipassana/Pañña is adequate. But to achieve any level of samadhi - "perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained" - one has to silence the thoughts. But of course to develop vipassana/pañña one has to think. But it will be a level of controlled thinking to focus on the 3 characteristics of phenomena. My experience is that this investigation works better focusing on the ayatanas and paying attention to sankharas to avoid proliferation.

I agree that direct insight is wordless. Yet, as you clarify "to develop vipassana/pañña one has to think". Yes in the sense that contemplating Dhamma is a condition that supports direct understanding.

Like you I think the ayatanas are so important, just those moments that are the meeting place for seeing and visible object, sound and hearing and so on. No self making it happen.

However, while I liked the general passage I quoted from Buddhadasa, what he said about being "perfectly cool, perfectly
still and restrained", sounds an idealized situation.
Remember that in the satipatthana sutta even doubt, anger, greed, and worry are said to be suitable objects for insight. Even extreme fear can be known directly and seen as merely an element, anatta.

[suspence772]

In my OP, I gave a link to a "debate" with Daniel Ingram and Dhammarato regarding the Mahasi method and its efficacy (although it was more of a discussion). Dhammarato's main concern was that over time, the Mahasi method lost its footing regarding what to do with the hindrances, at 21:05:

With all that I have from [Mahasi] is the writings, but the writings that I get seem to be correct, but weak on certain points. And then with U Pandita the points that were weak in the Mahasi got even weaker with U Pandita and by the time they got to Western Buddhism it disappeard altogether. And...the point that I'm making that got weaker and weaker is how important it is to remove the hindrances as soon as you can wake-up and see that they're there and throw them out. This has gotten quite weak in the Western tradition in the sense of noting and that the answer is: "What do I note? Note whatever is there." That's not the teaching of the Buddha, to just note what's there. We note what's there and make a discernment and if that's an unwholesome unappropriate thought, we remove it immediately. We move from unwholesome thoughts to wholesome thoughts...

I decided to do some research and found that Mahasi does indeed speak about how to handle the unwholesome (akusala) as well as the kilesas that bring about lobha, dosa, and moha. I can vouch that this is the first time I've ever even read about what to do with akusula and kilesas in the context of Vipassana, so perhaps this is just Western Dhamma leaving out a pretty substantial portion of the practice, supporting Dhammarato's claim. I've documented much of what Mahasi Sayadaw says about this below.

The Treatise On The Method Of Vipassana Insight Meditation, Vol. I Part I
Practice restraint and don't let kilesa's arise (page 37):

In respect of the six sense-doors when respective objects arise and realization comes with six kinds of Viññāṇa (consciousness), the restraint effect by way of vigilance exercised by Mindfulness through the act of noting to prevent Kilesas from arising is called "Indriyasaṃvara Sīla", i.e. the moral restraint relating to the control of the senses. The manner of guarding and protecting for the purification of Sīla will be fully and comprehensively shown when dealing with the matter of keeping the eye under restraint. Similarly, it may be known and realized in connection with the rest of the sense-doors (Dvāras).

...The mind should not be allowed to proceed beyond that point towards mental cognition of how fine and dignified the object is, and that means the characteristics of the beauty and dignity of the sight, or senility and ugliness of the sense-object, etc., should be prevented from creeping into the consciousness of the mind.

If the different or dissimilar features of females and males, such as, faces, hands, feet, etc., are perceived and noted and repeatedly borne in mind, Kilesas (defilements), such as, Rāga (lust), etc., are likely to become obvious. Therefore, different or distinguishing appearances, such as, face, eyebrow, eyeballs, nose, lips, breast, belly, hands, feet and other limbs should be expelled from the mind. Neither should the gestures and the manner of smiles, laughing, speaking, movement of the lips through anger, throwing of slanting piercing glances and other behaviours should be brought to the mind.

Similarly regards to restraint (page 43):

Restrain one's own mind, or rather, keep your mind within bounds with a resolve that endeavour will be made to imagine things, to talk and do things which will bring virtue, and that virtuous mind will be brought to the doors of the six sense-doors (dvāras), and also that care will always be taken to cause to bring merits, to exercise practice without harbouring hatred, and anger relating to any matter, and to avoid evil thoughts. A person who has so completely kept his mind in chick is most likely to keep himself away from unwholesome objects and thoughts so as to accomplish his objective. Even if he unavoidably comes to face such objects and thoughts, he is not likely to pay heed to them to the extent of committing unwholesome deeds. He becomes used to dwell his mind on matters connected only with kusala dhamma (wholesome deeds).

Channel akusula towards kusula (page 44):

If at all Akusala or unwholesome thoughts occur, channel this evil mind into wholesome thoughts.

Constantly staying with kusula will prevent akusula from arising (page 45):

A person who has been so relentlessly making effort will have no opportunity of the occurrence of unwholesome thoughts of Akusala cittas thoughts, and will generally have wholesome state of mind relating to sense-objects arising at the six sense-doors. This is in short Samudācāra, i.e. behaviour abstaining from the practice of lusts that arise within them.

Don't let lobha rise - doing so would be against the Buddha's teachings (page 46):

What Buddha and admonished is that one should not even feel angry against a villain who had cut him with a saw. If one gets angry, it would amount to disobeying Buddha's admonition. One should consider that this reproach is much more tolerable than being sawed.

Kileas are hard to control, but can only be done with bhavana (page 49):

Considering that since even a person endowed with the strong of Vipassanā (balava vipassaka person) cannot yet be free from kilesas, it should be noted that no one is able to manage or control the mind. The reason for being unable to keep vigilance on or control of the mind is because Kilesas, defilements, which should be dispelled by Indriyasaṃvare are not "Vītikkama", transgression through physical and mental action. These are only Pariyuṭṭhāna and anusaya kilesas (the surging defilements which are prepossessed and latent inherent in the mental element) that can only be rejected by concentration (Samādhi) and wisdom (Paññā)...For these reasons, Indriyasaṃvara-sīla cannot possibly be managed and kept under control without the practice or application of Bhāvanā - Meditation.

Don't indulge in kilesas, let them be dried up (page 61):

May these kilesas which are bound to arise depending upon the conditioned things that have already spring in the past, be dried up. Do not let yourself be anxious of rāga, etc. i.e. mental defilements or clinging passionate desires in the rūpa, nāma and saṅkhāra which are going to occur in future.

Mahasi uses similar language for all niyyanas and akusula, that they should be noted and rejected:

Since Kāmacchanda - sensual desire for is likely to deter and stand in the way of gaining insight (Vipassanā), it is known as Niyyānāvaraṇa. This Kāmacchanda would be avoided. If it occurs, it should be rejected by contemplating and noting. (Page 133)

If byāpada cannot be dispelled by noting as such one or two times, noting should be done repeatedly at every moment of the arising of them. Eventually, feeling of disappointment will completely disappear. (Page 134)

When [sloth and torpor] occurs, it must be contemplated and noted vividly, and then rejected. (Page 136)

This fleeting mind if and when occurred, should be rejected by contemplating and noting. (Page 138)

Do reject [doubt] every time it pops up or appears. IF NOT REJECTED, it would deter and close the door leading towards the goal of emancipation from the miseries and sufferings of Saṃsāra. In particular, "Be aware of it". (Page 138)

If idleness creeps in, recollection of the supreme attributes of the Triple Gem, etc., should be developed by expelling the feeling of idleness as stated in the foregoing. Or in the alternative, it should be dispelled by reflecting on the Eightfold Saṃvegavatthu, (i.e. by way of agitating and recalling the mind with the sense of urgency on what have occurred.) (Page 152)

Alternative techniques if noting doesn't work (page 167):

If feeling of greed (lobha) occurs at the sight of males and females, asubha-bhāvanā should be resorted to. If anger arises, mettā-bhāvanā should be made to develop. If lobha takes place relating to conditioned things, anicca-manasikāra would be brought forth, i.e. one should take to heart, or rather, bear in mind that things are uncontrollable and unowned (assāmika) and that these are of transient nature (tāvakālika) being subjected to the Law of Impermanence. When anger arises, the mind should be fixed on the material elements (dhātumanasikāra). Under such circumstances, how it should be borne in mind has been stated already in the matter relating to Indriyasaṃvara. If moha- delusion - occurs relating to the of the mind, doubt, etc., it should be eradicated by means of making investigation, or by listening to the 167 Dhamma and so on. Alternatively, if any kind of Kilesā arises, it should be rejected or eliminated by any one kind of Samatha. All these could be dispelled by such practice. When one gets tired physically and mentally when contemplating and noting for a considerable length of time, attention should be diverted to one kind of Samatha, if any, in which he is proficient.

(Other methods are included on pages 168 and 169)

In summary, eliminate all thoughts and akusula (page 173):

All unwholesome deeds akusala, demeritorious actions, are the factors that hinder and deter emancipation from the miseries of Saṃsāra. In the case of Vipassanā, all imaginary thoughts which flit and reflect without contemplating and noting, are indeed the phenomena that deter Vipassanā. Such factors should be eliminated or dispelled by way of contemplating and noting them every time they occur.

The Treatise On The Method Of Vipassana Insight Meditation, Vol. I Part II
Mahasi commentates on the Mālukyaputtasutta at SN 35.95 - Kilesas can’t arise for objects that haven't been seen; just look at things for what they are and don't consider their fine features. The Buddha's words "In what is seen there must be only what is seen..." spoke in this verse and in the Bahiyasutta at Ud 1.10 seem to be instructions, not so much end states as I used to believe (page 35):

From what has been known by these six Questions, it should be understood that kilesa arises through clinging to the obvious phenomena or conditions which appear at the six sense-doors. No clinging desire can possibly occur in respect of anything which is inconspicuous. Hence, it has been pointed out that Vipassanā contemplation should be made only on conspicuous dhammas so that "no feeling of love or hatred will occur just as in the case of inconspicuous dhammas."

To add on the previous, sila must work with the practice to prevent the mind from seeing more than what is merely seen (page 39):

It means to say that contemplation and noting must be done at every moment of seeing to prevent the arising of kilesa, as stated. Furthermore, it conveys the sense that whenever an odour is smelt, a sound is heard, a taste is felt, or a touch is made in respect of various matters which is tactile, or when ideas and different kinds of reflection are thought of and known, contemplation and noting should be carried on so as not to give opportunity for kilesas to arise and to stop short at the point of contact when an object is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, or touched, etc. This means that by so contemplating and noting, incessantly so as to stop the mind at the point of "seeing", sīla, samādhi and paññā in relation to Vipassanā should be developed by stages thereby causing to bring about an achievement of Magga-sīla, Samādhi and Paññā.

Reject all kilesa (page 46):

Even while noting is continually done as "seeing", "seeing", at every moment of seeing, when vipassanā knowledge is immature, impulses of cravings (kilesas) may often creep in. On that score there should be no disappointment. Nor should the effort to note be reduced. The impurity of mind bent upon kilesas should only be noted and then rejected.

Noting hindrances enough will eventually dispel them (page 151):

By noting and becoming aware only once, as stated, this kind of mind is likely to be eradicated or subdued. If it is not yet subdued, it should be noted at every moment of its arising. Eventually it will be got rid of. Only clear thoughts or pure mind will occur free from pleasurable desires.

Rejection of tanha prevents it from arising (page 227):

Awareness gained so as to prevent taṇhā from arising amounts to abandoning or rejection of this Taṇhā. Hence, the matter of Pahāna is also accomplished. Since, taṇhā even fails to occur in relation to these rūpa-nāma which ought to be known, no clinging attachment (upādāna), no effort to gain worldly pleasures or happiness (kamma), and no resultant effect of kamma to bring about renewed existence of rūpa and nāma, will come into play, or rather, take place.

This lead me down a pretty deep rabbit hole dealing with the nature of sankharas, ignorance, and dependent origination, but this post (most of my posts actually) is too long and may be best served for another day. To summarize my findings though: the point of sankharas is to accumulate and aggregate in your mind and can only manifest via volition (Vism. XVII.51 528) - meaning that allowing them to arise will only perpetuate their existence in the future. We have the ability to prevent further sankhara by choosing to focus on skillful qualities instead of unskilll ones; "staying in the present" shouldn't be the entire focus because that doesn't draw a distinction between skillful abiding in the present and unksillful abiding. One needs to stay in the present but only to build skillful qualities and reject unskillful ones. Without this distinction, one often accepts everything as it is and allows the mind to run amok with akusula and kilesas, as per my experience. Thanissaro Bhikku speaks about this here.

Maybe a sub-topic on this thread, but why is this idea not spoken of more frequently? Is it just ignorance from Western Buddhism?

Thanks to all who've helped me realize this. Hope this helps those who are lost. My saddha has been restored. Now to put this in practice...

Links to all four of Mahasi Saydaw's treatise are here:
Vol. I Part I
Vol. I Part II
Vol. II Part I
Vol. II Part II

[acessoaoinsight]

"perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained", sounds an idealized situation.
Remember that in the satipatthana sutta even doubt, anger, greed, and worry are said to be suitable objects for insight. Even extreme fear can be known directly and seen as merely an element, anatta.

"Perfectly cool, still, restrained" is samadhi or MN118. While doubt, anger, etc is citanupassana MN10 which is insight.

When the mind based on samadhi begins investigating the contact at the ayatanas indeed anger, greed, etc may arise, but since the mind is calm and controlled, and based on anicca, all that can be let go.

All emotions are bound to disappear so why react on them? The emotions don't disappear exactly because of clinging to them.

[pudai]

Satipatthana does strengthen sila, but sila (and sense restraint) is still required prerequisite for complete and successful satipatthana.

Amazing that no one ever mentions with clarity that stopping thinking is essential in order do develop samadhi. Without samadhi there is no vipassana. Those are the teachings of the Forest Tradition Ajahns in Thailand. Quite simple and obvious but always avoided by most practitioners in the countries of the West.

I wouldn't say all the hours of noting: bending, picking up, sweeping etc are a waste as they are mindfulness... but Buddho accomplishes the same thing as; Keeping anything in mind purposefully could be called a mindfulness object. The magic is when that is let go and nothing replaces it and then it is just the present action seen or witnessed by anyone that; that is all that is occurring, fully awake, aware and ardent.

The practice before then is the right effort required to achieve that. I think it funny when people say they couldn't even Buddho and then speak of a clear mind arising and stop there... As there are many metaphors and similes for that state; It is NIrodha, the dhammata, the clear light... In personal experience? It was the perfect time to uproot the skandhas and nothing more.

[Mudryj]

Although I don't follow the TWIM method, and have my reservations about it and the teachers who teach it, this very much describes the trouble I'm going through. I understand the irony in desiring a "personality change" whilst contemplating anatta, but my concern was the vanity in spending all these hours observing and experiencing the three characteristics if nothing really "changes".

If you have carefully studied the progression of insights, then you know that the three characteristics do not immediately produce profound changes. A sufficiently powerful concentration should be developed in the process, which will allow one to pass through the stages of insights, up to the knowledge of equanimity towards the formations. These insights are still only suppressing defilements and are worldly meditation. Indeed, your mind is still weak enough to break through the veil of ignorance and reach the first non-worldly path and fruition. But when you build up momentum long enough, it will happen and deep, real changes will happen in you. Mahasi describes that at some stages of insight there is frustration and unwillingness to continue the practice, because all formations seem tasteless, and practice is useless - this is a sign of progress. Such things should be communicated by the teacher in an encouraging, not doubtful way. There is no magic cure. It is the simple and unceasing focused observation of the three characteristics that leads to awakening.
And yes, indeed, distortions in states of mind towards indifference and joylessness are eliminated not by stopping vipassana, but by adding separate balancing practices, such as metta bhavana and others.

Ultimately, the Buddha said that one who does not have jhana has no wisdom, and one who does not have wisdom has no jhana. But whoever has both jhana and wisdom is close to nibbana. We can develop jhana-like states through diligent and focused satipatthana. If your mind still cannot concentrate enough using only three characteristics as an object, then you should consider adding a separate practice of focusing on calming objects such as breath, elements, kasinas and others.