Mumfie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:21 am
Just to clarify ... in the case of the stream-entry of Sāriputta...
Are you saying that it only occurred because the
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā... verse was spoken to Sāriputta by an ariyan, Assaji, and that it would not have occurred if the very same verse had been spoken to him by, say, Devadatta?
Or do you mean that it would simply never have occurred to a non-ariyan like Devadatta to speak such a verse to Sāriputta?
See the formula in many sutta.
MN 109 wrote:It’s when an unlearned ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. They regard feeling as self, self as having feeling, feeling in self, or self ...
...
It’s when a learned noble disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They don’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form
....
Devadatta is not an ariya. He is just puthujjana. Puthujjana doesn't see any ariya, even the ariya stand in front of him. Puthujjana doesn't care about true dhamma.
So if one want to learn true dhamma, one need to seek an ariya, a good person (sapurissa).
So if puthujjana say the verse to another puthujjana, it won't do anything.
But, a puthujjana who see/know/associate with ariya. At that time, he is not a puthujjana anymore. He has become ariya, entered the stream (at the very least a stream enterer, depending on their faculties development before can be higher).
So if one want to learn, keep learning. But at one point, one should be able to identify the Ariya here and now (alive ariya, can't be death one).
If you still learn from puthujjana, then alas puthujjana only identify another puthujjana. Puthujjana can't identify any ariya with 100% confidence. There will always doubt.
Puthujjana will not know the complete path, always doubt whether it is true teaching. Late or early teaching and many more arguments.
Puthujjana will not care about triple gems, other ariya.
Please don't say you can recall your past about your ariyan status. This only reserve for samma sambuddha or Pacceka Buddha. It is not possible at this time.