Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:18 pm Robertk wrote
and this sutta explains the ayatana (I have bolded those that are materiality). Without eyebase there can be no seeing consciousness ... If there were no sound there could not arise hearing and so on.
Nn one is denying the existence of the five sense organs, If the eye was not there, how could awareness of sight arise? if the functional ear with the auditory nerve intact was absent, how could hearing arise?
[...]

My real question was, does Abhidhamma assert that rupa of name-pupa of Dependent Origination, is physical/materail? I will keep it simple.
I am convinced when I read the original suttas of the buddha, that when he refers to Paticca samuppada, he is only teaching how the mind is affected by the world.
  • Therefore paticca samuppada is a teaching on the behavior of consciousness only.
DO does not deny the existence of the material world. But it is formulated to solve the problems (suffering) of one's mental world. Later Buddhists even thought that Paticca samuppada also teaches how Himalayas arose.
I am sure that was not even the last thought on Buddha's mind when he formulated the doctrine of DO.
With love :candle:
Dear Pulsar
yes rupa is materiality in the Paticca-samupadda.
You agree that the next link (saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso; with the six sense bases as condition, contact) does include materiality so i am not sure why you would object to this link (nama-rupa paccaya salayatana) having some materiality.

Of course the key factors that lead to the continuation of the long round of births and deaths are entirely mental- ignorance and clinging, and the import of the Buddha's teaching is to see into them:
"Seeking but not finding the house builder,
I hurried through the round of many births:
Painful is birth ever and again.
O house builder, you have been seen;
You shall not build the house again.
But this 'house' does have some physical elements.

I don't know about the Himalayas and Paticca-samupadda - you might need to supply a reference.
Pulsar
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

Just got up,
Dear robertk let me respond to the last sentence
of your last comment, I have only a moment available right now. When I have time, and have attended to the day's needs, I will respond to the important segment of your question.
You wrote
I don't know about the Himalayas and Paticca-samupadda - you might need to supply a reference.
the only reference that quickly comes to my mind is a comment made by Ceiswir on this forum. During a discussion on DO, this is what Ceiswir informed me.
But then, he spouts a lot of nonsense too. I just wanted to know whether you subscribe to that notion.
You don't. So it appears that you are better informed than Ceiswir, where the teaching of Paticca samuppada is concerned.
Write to you soon.
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:23 am Btw, please advice who the master of abhidhamma is. I'm still searching. I have searched many, not one has even understood the precepts yet. Most actually have study mix things from one to another and mix the teachings.
Me(sry i am joking)
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:23 am If it is peak, then alas there are many common folks that are teaching it nowadays indeed.

Ask yourself, why would you waste your time study from a possibly common folk work? Wouldn't it be wiser if one study that can be seen here and now first?
hard to believe you know what is in the abhidhamma. Idk if you argue against it, you should very least read one paragraph of it.
auto
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:23 am
auto wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:01 pm When you read words in the sutta, you do need infer from common sense if you have no overall knowledge what is in the sutta, it develops over time.

Not me. Probably for you or others.
You are referring that you remember from past lives?
Joe.c wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:23 am Otherwise whatever you read, see, hear, etc will be lost once you are death. Unless you developed some sati/samadhi before that (aka Ariya). A non ariya once they go to next life will forgot everything over time because there is no sati to support. See Brahma and many example in Sutta.
anyway it is better to stop this talk, enough clutter in this thread.. i made other thread you can post stuff
viewtopic.php?t=44969
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

I have a moment now. robertk wrote
Dear Pulsar
yes rupa is materiality in the Paticca-samupadda.
You agree that the next link (saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso; with the six sense bases as condition, contact) does include materiality so i am not sure why you would object to this link (nama-rupa paccaya salayatana) having some materiality.
My Dear Robert, It is true that vibajjavadins interpreted rupa in this case as materiality. But their scholasticism emerged after the Buddha was no more. Schools were battling each other to gain prominence, (Celebrity status) against the spirit of the Buddha.
Let me try to address the issue.
When it comes to DO, a lot of the suttas in the Pali canon (the vibajjavadin understanding got assimilated into that, they wrote the suttas, based on what they heard) seem to say rupa is material. But there are suttas in the Samyutta nikaya, including Fire sermon common to Vinaya Mahavagga and SN, that say rupa is a worldly phenomenon. i.e. something experienced,
  • What experiences? It is the consciousness that experiences.
The very reason even the very reasonable friends on this forum are confused by this issue is understandable.
In the sentence you wrote
with the six sense bases as condition, contact
what is meant is as follows, first is, link made between the eye and and the object?
Both are material.
The object Buddha is addressing in this case is the reflection in the eye, relating to the arising of eye consciousness.
a virtual image of the object appears on the retina. Is that not immaterial?.
Likewise when we think of the moon (visual) eye consciousness get triggerd, an image of moon appears in our minds that is immaterial.
Another example
Can you say a shadow is made of material? Tree casts a shadow. Shadow is immaterial. However if not for the tree and the sun (material conditions) that shadow will not appear.
Can you say the reflection found of the moon in a lake is material? The image in the Retina is like this, only an impression. An impression is not physical.
That impression gets named (identified by the puthujjana based on the underlying tendencies.) Underlying tendency is unique to a person, based on karmic habits. It is the contribution of this, that enables one to name (nama) the rupa.
Scholasticism did away with underlying tendency. Every nano second our thoughts are affected by our underlying tendencies (baggage we carry, ego, and all other defilements), unless we are engaged in right meditation, or unless you are an Arahant.
Arahant has done away with this feature. He travels free in a world filled with garbage, untouched by it.
Loss of underlying tendency does not mean loss of the function of the senses.
  • teaching of DO targets doing away with suffering now.
The other mistake scholasticism did was to fabricate suttas that give the impression first Satipatthana is a meditation on a physical body, or a rotting body. To Buddha it was not so. But compilers fabricated such suttas and to bestow authenticity on them, called them "These are Buddha'a teachings"
But Buddha was only concerned with craving and arresting that craving?, where soteriology was concerned. How can one lose craving by meditating on a physical body, or a rotting body?
It is the arising of mental events (papanca) that create suffering.
When I miss my child, who lives far away he still appears in my eye consciousness (with all his lovable features), i.e. eye consciousness, echoes of his voice, in ear consciousness, other senses likewise.
To think like this causes me grief. Buddha told us in the the Bhaddekaratta sutta "not to live in the past"
Why did he say so? When he told us to
  • kill Rupa
in the Radha Samyutta, did he mean "Kill the child" or stop craving for the child that creates these virtual images in the mind?
Let us proceed one step at a time, and patiently. Can you please correct me if I am wrong in my above statements.
With love :candle:
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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

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Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:47 pm . But there are suttas in the Samyutta nikaya, including Fire sermon common to Vinaya Mahavagga and SN, that say rupa is a worldly phenomenon. i.e. something experienced,
  • What experiences? It is the consciousness that experiences.
The very reason even the very reasonable friends on this forum are confused by this issue is understandable.
In the sentence you wrote
with the six sense bases as condition, contact
what is meant is as follows, first is, link made between the eye and and the object?
Both are material.
The object Buddha is addressing in this case is the reflection in the eye, relating to the arising of eye consciousness.
a virtual image of the object appears on the retina. Is that not immaterial?.
Dear Pulsar,
yes of course consciousness experiences . Cakkhuviññāṇa, eye consciousness experiences the visible object (i.e. color). And that object is material.
I am not sure what you are meaning by a virtual image appears at the retina, I haven't read that in a sutta?
However the Abhidhamma commentaries explain that initially there is cakkhuviññāṇa (taking rupa as object), and then there are many mind-door processes which do not have rupa as object.
Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:47 pm
When I miss my child, who lives far away he still appears in my eye consciousness (with all his lovable features), i.e. eye consciousness, echoes of his voice, in ear consciousness, other senses likewise.
In Abhidhamma those memories/images of you child are not cakkhu-viññāṇa(eye consciousness)- they are concepts with no reality. However the saññā (memory)and the thinking process are all real. Even when you might misremember certain details the saññā and thinking process is real.

Concepts (Paññatti) can be classified in many ways according to Abhidhamma.
So things like a unicorn and soul and rabbits horns can be considered as different types of paññatti from say trees.

Trees, computers, humans, Robert, Pulsar, my child, are the shadows of what is really there - and what is really there are only insignificant dhammas that can barely be said to exist because they pass away instantly. These concepts are more deluding than concepts like unicorns (which we know have no reality).

Because of accumulated avijja, ignorance, these type of concepts ( paññatti) delude and instead of being given their correct status - as necessary designations* - they are assumed to be actual. And that is where all problems begin and end.

This is good to know. When thinking about your child, if you know it is merely a process of thinking with concept as object it has less impact, less attachment or grief.
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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by robertk »

This is a good summary of the perception of an object
Nyanaponika
Abhidhamma Studies: Researches in Buddhist Psychology,
In order to understand
how “remembering” or “recognizing”, too, is implied
in every act of perception we should mention that
according to the deeply penetrative analysis of the
Abhidhamma the apparently simple act, for example,
of seeing a rose, is in reality a very complex
process composed of different phases, each consisting of numerous smaller combinations of conscious
processes (citta-vãthi) which again are made
up of several single moments of consciousness (cittakkhana)
following each other in a definite sequence
of diverse functions. Among these phases there is
one that connects the present perception of a rose
with a previous one, and there is another that
attaches to the present perception the name “rose”,
remembered from previous experience. Not only in
relation to similar experiences in a relatively distant
past, but also between those infinitesimally brief
single phases and successive processes the connecting
function of rudimentary “memory” must be
assumed to operate, because each phase and each
lesser successive state has to “remember” the previous
one — a process called by the later Abhidhammikas
“grasping the past” (atãta-ggahana). Finally,
the individual contributions of all those different
perceptual processes have to be remembered and
co-ordinated in order to form the final and complete
perception of a rose.
In that complex process, only the eye-consciousness , cakkhuviññāṇa, take a rupa as object, momentarily.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

My Dear robertk: To prove that rupa is a mental phenomenon, now I bring in suttas.
I bring the parallel agama suttas to support the Pali sutta. 
The agama sutras are from the Mulasarvastivada (which scholars consider the earliest).
I use excerpts minimally in order to bring the point home.
Pali sutta SN 22.94 writes:
There is bhikkhus a world phenomenon in the world to which Tathagata has awakened to, and broken through.
Having done so, he explains it, proclaims it, establishes it,
discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. Buddha continues "Form bhikkhus is a world phenomenon, in the world, to which Tathagata has awakened to."
Notice how Buddha calls Rupa aggregate, a world phenomenon. There are two agama parallels, 
SA 37, SA 38. There is a perfect match between Theravada and Agama parallels. SA 36 reads,
"Bhikkhus! What are the worldly dharmas that I know, that I am aware of, that I speak and show for others, but that the blind and the sightless do not know and do not see"?
 Buddha repeats,
"These worldly dharmas, form, feeling etc are impermanent, suffering"
Buddha's awakening had to do with realizing that rupa is a mental activity, unlike in the non buddhist traditions of the day, whose thinking differed
Buddha repeats
Bhikkhus! These are the worldly dharmas, which I know and have awoken to,  and which I show to others, but which the blind and sightless do not see.
SA 38 writes 
Thus, bhikkhus! There is a worldly law which I know and perceive, which I speak of and show to others, which I know and have awoken to, which the blind and the sightless of the world do not know and do not see."Bhikkhus! What are the worldly dharmas that I awoke to?"
The worldly dharmas are form/color, feeling etc. Bhikkhus! This is the worldly dharma that I have awoken to, I explain it. 
Pali sutta presents it beautifully 
"I proclaim it, establish it, disclose it,
analyse it, elucidate it"
but the blind and the sightless reject it"
Why were these people blind and sightless? that they were willing to reject Buddha's very awakening? 
Dear robertk: Does Visuddhimagga give us a valid reason to disbelieve Buddha, in this instance?
With love  :candle:
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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:35 am My Dear robertk: To prove that rupa is a mental phenomenon, now I bring in suttas.
I bring the parallel agama suttas to support the Pali sutta. 
The agama sutras are from the Mulasarvastivada (which scholars consider the earliest).
I use excerpts minimally in order to bring the point home.
Pali sutta SN 22.94 writes:
There is bhikkhus a world phenomenon in the world to which Tathagata has awakened to, and broken through.
Having done so, he explains it, proclaims it, establishes it,
discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. Buddha continues "Form bhikkhus is a world phenomenon, in the world, to which Tathagata has awakened to."
Notice how Buddha calls Rupa aggregate, a world phenomenon. There are two agama parallels, 
SA 37, SA 38. There is a perfect match between Theravada and Agama parallels. SA 36 reads,
"Bhikkhus! What are the worldly dharmas that I know, that I am aware of, that I speak and show for others, but that the blind and the sightless do not know and do not see"?
 Buddha repeats,
"These worldly dharmas, form, feeling etc are impermanent, suffering"
Buddha's awakening had to do with realizing that rupa is a mental activity, unlike in the non buddhist traditions of the day, whose thinking differed
Buddha repeats
Bhikkhus! These are the worldly dharmas, which I know and have awoken to,  and which I show to others, but which the blind and sightless do not see.
SA 38 writes 
Thus, bhikkhus! There is a worldly law which I know and perceive, which I speak of and show to others, which I know and have awoken to, which the blind and the sightless of the world do not know and do not see."Bhikkhus! What are the worldly dharmas that I awoke to?"
The worldly dharmas are form/color, feeling etc. Bhikkhus! This is the worldly dharma that I have awoken to, I explain it. 
Dear Pulsar,

The sutta you cite explains the 5 khandha.
And your assertion is that all rupa khandha - for instance, color - is purely mental. There can be no materiality in rupa khandha, is that correct?

So even those suttas that state that rupa khandha is the four great elements don't imply any materiality?
Saṁyutta Nikāya
Connected Discourses on the Aggregates
22.56. Phases of the Clinging Aggregates

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these five aggregates subject to clinging. What five? The form aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging.

[..]

“And what, bhikkhus, is form? The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

robertk wrote
So even those suttas that state that rupa khandha is the four great elements don't imply any materiality?
Those suttas writers influenced by Abhidhamma believed that rupa khanda was materiality as you think too. Amazing thing is it is not limited to Vibajjavada. Some translators of agama suttas
translate rupa/form as materiality.
Some of these errors are influenced by the understanding of the person doing the translation.
The outcome of such misunderstanding was that Buddhists came to believe
that by meditating on the four Primary elements, earth, air, water, and fire, they can eventually attain Nibbana.
I do not know who is to blame? Language? pure human error? The doctrine is very profound.
Could every sutta compiler's understanding match the level required to assimilate Buddha's Dhamma???
Buddha's original teachings indicats one should focus on the arising of consciousness at each sensory door.
In the foundational Buddhism the word "element" implied the consciousness arising due to the 6 sense bases, trapped in the sensosphere.
With time people included earth, air, water and fire in meditation because they were also called elements, without paying attention to the fact, they are called "Primary Elements" meaning these are things that make up the physical world.
There are suttas in the canon that say this.
There is a world of difference between a rock (earth element) and human eye or ear consciousness, also called elements.
Buddha's original meditation tries to correct the flaws of the mind. See SN 47.42. It is only by removing defilements gradually in this manner, that we can reach Nibbana.
With love :candle:
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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:01 pm
Buddha's original teachings indicats one should focus on the arising of consciousness at each sensory door.
In the foundational Buddhism the word "element" implied the consciousness arising due to the 6 sense bases, trapped in the sensosphere.
dear Pulsar
the sense bases are rupa - they are material, right?


https://suttacentral.net/sn35.27/en/bod ... ight=false

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Connected Discourses on the Six Sense Bases

35.27. Full Understanding (2)
“Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the all…?

The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness. The ear and sounds and ear-consciousness and things to be cognized by ear-consciousness…. The mind and mental phenomena and mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness.

“This, bhikkhus, is the all without directly knowing and fully understanding which, without developing dispassion towards which and abandoning which, one is incapable of destroying suffering.

“But, bhikkhus, by directly knowing and fully understanding the all, by developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is capable of destroying suffering.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the all…? as above

“This, bhikkhus, is the all by directly knowing and fully understanding which, by developing dispassion towards which and abandoning which, one is capable of destroying suffering.”
So indeed the "arising of consciousness at each sensory door" must be understood as you say. But also the eye base and ear base etc - those material phenomena need to be understood. And of course some objects such as sound are entirely materiality and must be understood.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ontheway »

Does Visuddhimagga give us a valid reason to disbelieve Buddha, in this instance?
Study of Visuddhimagga will only enhance the confidence towards the Triple Gems. Not otherwise.

Such statement above aimed to create a false dichotomy and it is demeritorious.

Have anyone read the Visuddhimagga, will understand how sublime is the Dhamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:22 am Have anyone read the Visuddhimagga, will understand how sublime is the Dhamma.
... in comparison.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by asahi »

Try reading Vimuttimagga in comparison with Visuddhimagga , then perhaps you will see where are the differences .
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