Savaka doesn't have a path

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auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:08 pm Mn 74, sariputta just heard the dhamma from Buddha and attained the arahant (not by meditating). That is not cetovimutti. This is pannavimutti. Comprehending with wisdom.

But Maha moggalana is freed both way. Freed by mind +wisdom need to achieve sannavedayitanirodha. Progressively removed vedana and sanna as well.
yes, i got that one wrong. Freed by wisdom doesn't have meditative experience. So, i just valuated him a notch higher than i should have. The things i said still hold.

And the thing you say about it not being cetovimutti, the sutta apparently says it is 'cittaṁ vimucci' what buddha talks about.. yes i did same mistake as above mentioned.
So you mean that the sariputta didn't get max arhant freedom, that there is better understanding of the freedom to be had..

Well didn't you disagree with it, that the arhants aren't all the same? that the buddha has superior direct knowledge of freedom than anyone else
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.12/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:I believe there’s no other ascetic or brahmin—whether past, future, or present—whose direct knowledge is superior to the Buddha when it comes to awakening.”
..
“And what about me, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha at present? Have you comprehended my mind to know that
I have such ethics, or such qualities, or such wisdom, or such meditation, or such freedom?”

“No, sir.”
Bundokji
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Bundokji »

It happened only once that the Buddha preferred Moggallana's attitude in a certain matter to that of Sariputta. The Master, after having dismissed from his presence some noisy and unmannered monks, later asked his two chief disciples what they had thought when he sent away those monks. Sariputta said, he thought that the Master wanted to enjoy a blissful abiding in the present (through jhana) and that they, the chief disciples, were to do the same. But the Buddha reproached him saying that he should not have such thoughts again. Then the Buddha turned to Moggallana, with the same question. Moggallana replied that he, too, had thought the Master wanted to enjoy the bliss of jhana; but if so, then it would have been Sariputta's task to take care of the community of monks and to look after them. The Buddha praised him and said that if both his chief disciples took care of the community, it would be as good as if he himself looked after the monks. (M. 67).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:03 pm Show me in sutta who entered the stream by meditation in Sutta. Please.
hmm
https://suttacentral.net/an4.5/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: All those people with unbridled sensuality,
Ye keci kāmesu asaññatā janā,
not free of lust, enjoying sensual pleasures in this life:
Avītarāgā idha kāmabhogino;
again and again, they return to birth and old age;
Punappunaṁ jātijarūpagāmi te, Variant: jātijarūpagāmi te → jātijarūpagāhino (bj); jātijarūpagā hi te (sya-all, km); jātijarūpagāmī te (pts1ed)
those who go with the stream are sunk in craving.
Taṇhādhipannā anusotagāmino.
i think sotapanna fruit is not attained by meditation, because one need have dhamma eye open to experience feeling what occur in jhana realm. Doesn't mean you can't open dhamma eye/attain the streamentry fruit without hearing from ariya.
Anyway these things are not clear for me. Doesn't mean i reject these thoughts, like you seem wanting to happen.

i'm curious about the practice you doing. Or you mean that you don't practice and everyone else should not too because no living ariya around? How do you even confirm that one has perfected sila like you said, living with a person you suspect to be ariya?
https://suttacentral.net/an10.99/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: ‘Though I don’t have immersion, I’m going to frequent remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest.’ You can expect that
‘ahaṁ samādhiṁ alabhamāno araññavanapatthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevissāmī’ti, tassetaṁ pāṭikaṅkhaṁ:
they’ll sink down or float away.
‘saṁsīdissati vā uplavissati vā’ti.
it is possible that the one who goes with the stream, is someone who tries to practice is carried away by the craving. Hence one need cessation of perception and feeling so that the mind would incline towards seclusion(viveka)
viveka in this sutta,
buddha asks god
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.2/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Good sir, do you understand liberation, emancipation, and seclusion for sentient beings?”
“Jānāsi no tvaṁ, mārisa, sattānaṁ nimokkhaṁ pamokkhaṁ vivekan”ti?
yes that god knows without hearing from buddha how to attain cessation of perception and feeling.
Joe.c
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:14 pm So you mean that the sariputta didn't get max arhant freedom, that there is better understanding of the freedom to be had..
There are many way to reach Nibbana. Pannavimutti is a short cut, by using Buddha wisdom to achieve it.

Freedom are the same. It is destruction of asava(s). It doesn't matter whether one take 10km to reach destination or 1 km to reach destination. Once one reach Nibbana, there is no difference of status whether you take longer road or shorter road.

Each Arahant has direct personal knowledge. No one can take away of that.
you wrote: Well didn't you disagree with it, that the arhants aren't all the same? that the buddha has superior direct knowledge of freedom than anyone else
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.12/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:I believe there’s no other ascetic or brahmin—whether past, future, or present—whose direct knowledge is superior to the Buddha when it comes to awakening.”
..
“And what about me, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha at present? Have you comprehended my mind to know that
I have such ethics, or such qualities, or such wisdom, or such meditation, or such freedom?”

“No, sir.”
There is no need to comprehend the Buddha mind. Ven Sariputta has his own mind/body/experience to analyze and compare with the experience that is being described by Buddha. He personally knew.

But if you say Buddha might have more mundane knowledges than Ven Sariputta, then that might be the case. But, supramundane knowledges are all the same. Buddha has taught all of the supramundane knowledges to all his disciples (no less, no more, the teaching is perfectly concise and complete).

The only people, who say they are different, are usually common folks.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:32 pm hmm
https://suttacentral.net/an4.5/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: All those people with unbridled sensuality,
Ye keci kāmesu asaññatā janā,
not free of lust, enjoying sensual pleasures in this life:
Avītarāgā idha kāmabhogino;
again and again, they return to birth and old age;
Punappunaṁ jātijarūpagāmi te, Variant: jātijarūpagāmi te → jātijarūpagāhino (bj); jātijarūpagā hi te (sya-all, km); jātijarūpagāmī te (pts1ed)
those who go with the stream are sunk in craving.
Taṇhādhipannā anusotagāmino.
This Sutta is just a generic sutta. I need a sutta that Buddha said so and so has attained sotapanna magga by meditation. or Someone declare it that he/she has attained sotapanna magga by meditation in Sutta. or Buddha asked someone to meditate to attain sotapanna magga. I have found NONE of this.

But nowadays, people meditate right away. 😅

In Sutta, you will find:
- Upali listened to Buddha (MN 56). Then Buddha taught him step by step teaching, Upali is closely pay attention to the teaching. He attain Sotapanna Magga.
- Ven. Sariputta listen to Ven Assaji words. Then he entered the stream. (Vinaya)
- Ven Maha Moggallana listen to Ven Sariputta words (new sotapanna). Then Ven Maha Moggallana also entered the stream. (Vinaya)
- Yasa listened to Buddha talk. (vinaya)
- The leper Suppabuddha listened to Buddha (ud. 5.3)

What I gave you is the formula in Sutta. Buddha taught step by step teaching, then they entered the stream. So An ariya explained the true dhamma, the dhammacakkhu is opened (i.e. entering the stream) for a puthujjana.
you wrote: i think sotapanna fruit is not attained by meditation, because one need have dhamma eye open to experience feeling what occur in jhana realm. Doesn't mean you can't open dhamma eye/attain the streamentry fruit without hearing from ariya.
Again I need quote. if meditation alone can attain stream entry path (magga). Buddha would have asked them to recite it or this has been explain in sutta.

For fruit, it is automatic as long you already & stay in the path, fruit will be there.

Those ascetic in the past that has psychic power during Buddha time would have attained an arahanthood such as Kassappa from Uruvella.
you wrote: Anyway these things are not clear for me. Doesn't mean i reject these thoughts, like you seem wanting to happen.

i'm curious about the practice you doing. Or you mean that you don't practice and everyone else should not too
Mainly relax and listen, reflect on dhamma carefully. And check who is who. I have been looking at abhidhamma, but no higher teaching there.

But if you found an expert in abhidhamma, i would like to check personally. Converse with him/her and see if there is truly higher wisdom or not.

Sutta contains all the low and higher teaching.
you wrote:because no living ariya around? How do you even confirm that one has perfected sila like you said, living with a person you suspect to be ariya?
I never say this. This need to be investigate by your own. To do it one need to be at same/similar level. Even a good puthujjana will notice right away another good person or an ariya. See many example in Sutta.

Perfected sila needs to be confirmed by closely living with them. Did they say as they do it or not?

If they teach meditation, then verify their body/mind whether it is a samma samadhi or just based on wrong understanding. Many has wrong understanding. No sense restraint, but teach jhana already. That is impossible.

Anyway, there are many ways to check. But one needs to climb the ladder first to see clearly. Start precepts and continuously listen and check true dhamma.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.99/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: ‘Though I don’t have immersion, I’m going to frequent remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest.’ You can expect that
‘ahaṁ samādhiṁ alabhamāno araññavanapatthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevissāmī’ti, tassetaṁ pāṭikaṅkhaṁ:
they’ll sink down or float away.
Well without Jhana (samma samadhi), there is no way for any delight to stay in the forest. People can go crazy and do silly thing. :)

You will see Sutta where Buddha hold off someone who want to go meditate by his own before understanding the higher teaching, at least stream enterer with some samma samadhi developed (able to stay in 1st jhana or higher continuously)
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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robertk
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by robertk »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:04 am
But if you found an expert in abhidhamma, i would like to check personally. Converse with him/her and see if there is truly higher wisdom or not.

Dear Joe,
This Saturday Sujin Boriharnwanaket is on a zoom meeting and you can converse directly with her. She is one of the most well known Abhidhamma -vipassana teachers in Thailand, and has excellent English.
https://us04web.zoom.us/j/5175280277
Meeting ID: 517 528 0277
Password: viriya

1:30pm to 3pm Thailand time
If you plan to join let me know and I will make sure to also be there and can help introduce you. You can ask anything.
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cappuccino
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by cappuccino »

whatever you place on a pedestal is not possible


you will merely view it as ideal


better to consider it within reach
auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:13 pm
auto wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:14 pm So you mean that the sariputta didn't get max arhant freedom, that there is better understanding of the freedom to be had..
There are many way to reach Nibbana. Pannavimutti is a short cut, by using Buddha wisdom to achieve it.

Freedom are the same. It is destruction of asava(s). It doesn't matter whether one take 10km to reach destination or 1 km to reach destination. Once one reach Nibbana, there is no difference of status whether you take longer road or shorter road.

Each Arahant has direct personal knowledge. No one can take away of that.
Sorry, i did earlier another mistake saying savaka arhant has comprehended the dhamma.
That said,
Savaka arhant eradicates defilements. But buddha isn't. Buddha will attain peaceful dwelling and mindfulness and awareness instead of eradication of defilements.

Savaka arhant is anagami, but not in a fruition sense but someone who doesn't return back to this world. Buddha in that sense is called tathagata, thus gone one, already gone.
auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:04 am Perfected sila needs to be confirmed by closely living with them. Did they say as they do it or not?
there is a sutta about it that it takes longer to notice.
auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:13 pm But, supramundane knowledges are all the same. Buddha has taught all of the supramundane knowledges to all his disciples (no less, no more, the teaching is perfectly concise and complete).
When it comes to awakening, then savaka doesn't comprehend buddhas mind without inference. Savaka doesn't do the samadhi what results in anuttara sammasambodhi.
samma samadhi doesn't lead to 8th jhana to cessation of perception and feeling. Per sutta, bodhisatta did jhana 1-4 and then attained the supramundane knowledges.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:51 pm When it comes to awakening, then savaka doesn't comprehend buddhas mind without inference. Savaka doesn't do the samadhi what results in anuttara sammasambodhi.
Well I guess you want to be a Samma Sambuddha to achieve anuttara sammasambodhi?

O well. Good luck. Those conditions to maintain are very difficult. You probably need to get into the long-long-long line and wait for next Buddha Metteyya to arise. And hope you are one of his disciple with super super great-great-great deeds to get in the line. If not, try again on next one. Alas, I know it is close to impossible.

Even to get to know one Buddha and/or one of his disciple and hear true dhamma is considered to be very very very lucky. It is like getting a lottery ticket.

Btw 4th jhana of samma samadhi may include the ayatana as well. Just look at MN 43 explanation. However to go beyond it is not necessary. This Buddha created the shortcut.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:18 am Well I guess you want to be a Samma Sambuddha to achieve anuttara sammasambodhi?

O well. Good luck. Those conditions to maintain are very difficult. You probably need to get into the long-long-long line and wait for next Buddha Metteyya to arise. And hope you are one of his disciple with super super great-great-great deeds to get in the line. If not, try again on next one. Alas, I know it is close to impossible.

Even to get to know one Buddha and/or one of his disciple and hear true dhamma is considered to be very very very lucky. It is like getting a lottery ticket.

Btw 4th jhana of samma samadhi may include the ayatana as well. Just look at MN 43 explanation. However to go beyond it is not necessary. This Buddha created the shortcut.
Or simply not hold those views which make you think it is near impossible.
I follow system where the body is the fabric of the objects of meditation. Object of meditation is the feeling(citta with its object).
Practically, if i think of a water(conceptual) then there can arise another object lets say the smell of a seawater. That meditation object has substrate tied to the heart and heart is the entire world and then you can focus on that world. And when you focus on that world there arises objectless(without concept) substrate which corresponds with the physical body, then i can use physical body functions like muscles and breathing to give rise to the substrate(idk if it is called substrate tho, it can be vapor or subtle matter etc just going by a fancy word)
So, if i would start off from physical things like trying observe the breath under the nose then i already have a wrong view or lacking any prospect of having a view, just randomly starting to do practice like plenty(or everyone who starts off) are doing with the horse stance or full lotus. OR i am wrong, but it is the best i know at the moment and i rather not wait, and is actually not possible to wait, practice happens regardless, cliche but the mundane breathing already cultivates things and body overall does transformations by itself..
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm Or simply not hold those views which make you think it is near impossible.
I follow system where the body is the fabric of the objects of meditation. Object of meditation is the feeling(citta with its object).
Practically, if i think of a water(conceptual) then there can arise another object lets say the smell of a seawater. That meditation object has substrate tied to the heart and heart is the entire world and then you can focus on that world. And when you focus on that world there arises objectless(without concept) substrate which corresponds with the physical body, then i can use physical body functions like muscles and breathing to give rise to the substrate(idk if it is called substrate tho, it can be vapor or subtle matter etc just going by a fancy word)
So, if i would start off from physical things like trying observe the breath under the nose then i already have a wrong view or lacking any prospect of having a view, just randomly starting to do practice like plenty(or everyone who starts off) are doing with the horse stance or full lotus. OR i am wrong, but it is the best i know at the moment and i rather not wait, and is actually not possible to wait, practice happens regardless, cliche but the mundane breathing already cultivates things and body overall does transformations by itself..
Err.... When i saw this reply, i know how delusional can be.

Mundane breathing don't do anything at all. People blindly meditate. 😅

But if you say Perfected Precepts 24/7 will produce deva body here and now. I believe it. Just look at the 32 great marks.

Deva body (even sensual realm deva) will not suffer in human world, very rarely. Unless the past bad deed come to fruition, even then it is quite quick to past because the good qualities are being maintained 24/7.

An arahant/non returner has a Brahma body. Very rarely suffer till end of life as long as maintaining samma samadhi/sati 24/7.

Anyway good luck.

People think they can just blindly meditate to achieve stream entry or an arahant. Truly delusional i said. One needs to hear true dhamma first from ariya.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:51 am But if you say Perfected Precepts 24/7 will produce deva body here and now. I believe it. Just look at the 32 great marks.

Deva body (even sensual realm deva) will not suffer in human world, very rarely. Unless the past bad deed come to fruition, even then it is quite quick to past because the good qualities are being maintained 24/7.

People think they can just blindly meditate to achieve stream entry or an arahant. Truly delusional i said. One needs to hear true dhamma first from ariya.
association with persons - lifestyle(vuttika), is for to fulfill supplementary regulations for completing the practice of a trainee.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.21/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Without fulfilling the practice dealing with supplementary regulations, it’s impossible to fulfill the practice of a trainee.
‘Ābhisamācārikaṁ dhammaṁ aparipūretvā sekhaṁ dhammaṁ paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati. Variant: sekhaṁ → sekkhaṁ (mr)
Without fulfilling the practice of a trainee, it’s impossible to fulfill ethics.
‘Sekhaṁ dhammaṁ aparipūretvā sīlāni paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
Without fulfilling ethics, it’s impossible to fulfill right view.
‘Sīlāni aparipūretvā sammādiṭṭhiṁ paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion.
‘Sammādiṭṭhiṁ aparipūretvā sammāsamādhiṁ paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.26/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: A man who associates with an inferior goes downhill,
Nihīyati puriso nihīnasevī,
but associating with an equal, you’ll never decline;
Na ca hāyetha kadāci tulyasevī;
following the best, you’ll quickly rise up,
Seṭṭhamupanamaṁ udeti khippaṁ,
so you should keep company with people better than you.”
Tasmā attano uttariṁ bhajethā”ti.
Joe.c
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:22 pm ...
I don't see anything wrong with your quote. As long as YOU truly see the good person (sapurissa) and/or ariya. There is no way for going lower. One can only get higher and higher knowledges. When you see one, you will see many. 😁

That is why many good person see ariya, they shake off their drunkenness and settle their mind RiGHT AWAY to try hear true dhamma.

See Ugga or Sariputta and many more.
an 8.22 wrote: ...
Sir, when I first saw the Buddha off in the distance I was partying in the Dragon’s Park. My heart was inspired as soon as I saw him, and I sobered up. This is the first incredible and amazing quality found in me.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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