auto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:32 pm
hmm
This Sutta is just a generic sutta. I need a sutta that Buddha said so and so has attained sotapanna magga by meditation. or Someone declare it that he/she has attained sotapanna magga by meditation in Sutta. or Buddha asked someone to meditate to attain sotapanna magga. I have found NONE of this.
But nowadays, people meditate right away.
In Sutta, you will find:
- Upali listened to Buddha (MN 56). Then Buddha taught him step by step teaching, Upali is closely pay attention to the teaching. He attain Sotapanna Magga.
- Ven. Sariputta listen to Ven Assaji words. Then he entered the stream. (Vinaya)
- Ven Maha Moggallana listen to Ven Sariputta words (new sotapanna). Then Ven Maha Moggallana also entered the stream. (Vinaya)
- Yasa listened to Buddha talk. (vinaya)
- The leper Suppabuddha listened to Buddha (ud. 5.3)
What I gave you is the formula in Sutta. Buddha taught step by step teaching, then they entered the stream. So An ariya explained the true dhamma, the dhammacakkhu is opened (i.e. entering the stream) for a puthujjana.
you wrote:
i think sotapanna fruit is not attained by meditation, because one need have dhamma eye open to experience feeling what occur in jhana realm. Doesn't mean you can't open dhamma eye/attain the streamentry fruit without hearing from ariya.
Again I need quote. if meditation alone can attain stream entry path (magga). Buddha would have asked them to recite it or this has been explain in sutta.
For fruit, it is automatic as long you already & stay in the path, fruit will be there.
Those ascetic in the past that has psychic power during Buddha time would have attained an arahanthood such as Kassappa from Uruvella.
you wrote:
Anyway these things are not clear for me. Doesn't mean i reject these thoughts, like you seem wanting to happen.
i'm curious about the practice you doing. Or you mean that you don't practice and everyone else should not too
Mainly relax and listen, reflect on dhamma carefully. And check who is who. I have been looking at abhidhamma, but no higher teaching there.
But if you found an expert in abhidhamma, i would like to check personally. Converse with him/her and see if there is truly higher wisdom or not.
Sutta contains all the low and higher teaching.
you wrote:because no living ariya around? How do you even confirm that one has perfected sila like you said, living with a person you suspect to be ariya?
I never say this. This need to be investigate by your own. To do it one need to be at same/similar level. Even a good puthujjana will notice right away another good person or an ariya. See many example in Sutta.
Perfected sila needs to be confirmed by closely living with them. Did they say as they do it or not?
If they teach meditation, then verify their body/mind whether it is a samma samadhi or just based on wrong understanding. Many has wrong understanding. No sense restraint, but teach jhana already. That is impossible.
Anyway, there are many ways to check. But one needs to climb the ladder first to see clearly. Start precepts and continuously listen and check true dhamma.
Well without Jhana (samma samadhi), there is no way for any delight to stay in the forest. People can go crazy and do silly thing.
You will see Sutta where Buddha hold off someone who want to go meditate by his own before understanding the higher teaching, at least stream enterer with some samma samadhi developed (able to stay in 1st jhana or higher continuously)