concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Eli996
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concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Eli996 »

I have been meditating on and off for some years now, mainly practicing Anapanasati- concentring on the flow of the breath, I don't practice one point concentrate as some suggest rather observing the flow
of the experience of the breath, for me, it feels more natural and more relaxing than choosing one point
and trying hard to maintain focus on that spot,

my question to you how can I assure when I'm observing the breath I have zero impact on the movement of the breath?
I try my best to just observe but I can't get rid of the subconscious mental voice that I might be the one who controls it

for example, if your mind wanders you have no idea how you breath,
it's automatic but as soon you move your attention to your breath it appears you take control from your subconscious if that makes any sense to you
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Mr Man
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Mr Man »

Don’t pay attention to the subconscious voice. Know it as doubt.
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Pondera
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Pondera »

I settle in on the nose itself. I don’t pay attention to my chest rising and falling. I don’t pay attention to the sound. I don’t pay attention to the *feeling*. I just settle into one part of the nose or another. And breathing occurs unconsciously. Then I move ahead. I think about the body. Then feelings. And if I feel like going beyond feelings, I can observe the mind and mental phenomena (dhammas). At the stage I’m at, I’m happy to settle into positive feelings.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

It doesn’t actually matter. What matters is training to have a continuous awareness of the breath as it is without deliberately controlling it like in the practice of pranayama, for example.
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Sam Vara
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Sam Vara »

Did anyone ever teach you that you shouldn't attempt to control the breath?
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Goofaholix
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Goofaholix »

Giving attention to an object the habit of the mind is to attempt to control it to some degree. You should just notice this and be willing to let go of it, it takes a long time, one of the main points of this practice is to learn to let go of the habit of needing to subtly control your experience.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
santa100
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by santa100 »

Eli996 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:51 am my question to you how can I assure when I'm observing the breath I have zero impact on the movement of the breath?
I try my best to just observe but I can't get rid of the subconscious mental voice that I might be the one who controls it

for example, if your mind wanders you have no idea how you breath,
it's automatic but as soon you move your attention to your breath it appears you take control from your subconscious if that makes any sense to you
Because you still think that there is a "you" who is observing and/or controlling "your breath". Try to remove all notions of "I", "mine", or "myself", for ex., instead of noticing "my breath is short, or my breath is long", simply notice "short breath, short breath,....., long breath, long breath,....".
Enam
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Enam »

Eli996 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:51 am my question to you how can I assure when I'm observing the breath I have zero impact on the movement of the breath?
I try my best to just observe but I can't get rid of the subconscious mental voice that I might be the one who controls it
Hi. The purpose of meditation is to control the breathing; albeit in an indirect manner. The instructions say the meditator trains oneself to calm the breathing:
He trains himself: 'calming down the kāya-saṅkhāra, I will breathe in'. He trains himself: 'calming down the kāya-saṅkhāra, I will breathe out'.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html
No matter what you do, your state of mind will have an effect upon the breathing. The purpose of the training is to realize this & to learn/discover which type of state of mind causes the breathing to calm. :meditate:
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Pondera
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Pondera »

Enam wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:42 am
Eli996 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:51 am my question to you how can I assure when I'm observing the breath I have zero impact on the movement of the breath?
I try my best to just observe but I can't get rid of the subconscious mental voice that I might be the one who controls it
Hi. The purpose of meditation is to control the breathing; albeit in an indirect manner. The instructions say the meditator trains oneself to calm the breathing:
He trains himself: 'calming down the kāya-saṅkhāra, I will breathe in'. He trains himself: 'calming down the kāya-saṅkhāra, I will breathe out'.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html
No matter what you do, your state of mind will have an effect upon the breathing. The purpose of the training is to realize this & to learn/discover which type of state of mind causes the breathing to calm. :meditate:
“Kaya-sankhara” = “bodily formation”

The purpose is to use the breath as a tool to calm the body, experience rapture and bliss, investigate the mind, and experience cessation (among other things).

The “breathing” part is one part of four. Don’t get hung up on the *sound* or *feeling* of breath.

As the Buddha said, when the mind is full of rapture, then the body becomes tranquil. When the body becomes tranquil, bliss is felt. With bliss comes samadhi.

Don’t forget to look at the big picture.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Enam
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Enam »

Pondera wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:57 am “Kaya-sankhara” = “bodily formation”
“Kaya-sankhara” = “breathing”
Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyasaṅkhāro

In & out breathes, householder, are the kāyasaṅkhāro.

SN 41.6
Definitions for saṅkhāra

mental coefficients requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, or mano˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those

https://suttacentral.net/define/sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra
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Pondera
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Pondera »

Enam wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:03 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:57 am “Kaya-sankhara” = “bodily formation”
“Kaya-sankhara” = “breathing”
Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyasaṅkhāro

In & out breathes, householder, are the kāyasaṅkhāro.

SN 41.6
Definitions for saṅkhāra

mental coefficients requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, or mano˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those

https://suttacentral.net/define/sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/kayasankhara
kāyasaṅkhāra : (m.) substratum of the body.
Source: Sutta: The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary
Kāyasaṅkhāra:—The material aggregate, substratum of body Vin. III, 71; S. II, 40; III, 125; IV, 293; A. I, 122; II, 158, 231; Ps. I, 184, 186; Vism. 530.
--- OR ---
Kāyasaṅkhāra refers to: the material aggregate, substratum of body Vin. III, 71; S. II, 40; III, 125; IV, 293; A. I, 122; II, 158, 231; Ps. I, 184, 186; Vism. 530.
Note: kāyasaṅkhāra is a Pali compound consisting of the words kāya and saṅkhāra.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: concentrating on the breath - How can I be 100 certain I'm not having an impact on the flow of breath in\out

Post by Pondera »

Enam wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:03 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:57 am “Kaya-sankhara” = “bodily formation”
“Kaya-sankhara” = “breathing”
Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyasaṅkhāro

In & out breathes, householder, are the kāyasaṅkhāro.

SN 41.6
Definitions for saṅkhāra

mental coefficients requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, or mano˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those

https://suttacentral.net/define/sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra
Note:
"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies,which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Moreover, we see why in and out breathes are a body among bodies.

See:
"Develop the meditation in tune with wind. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when wind blows what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.
“Wind” corresponds to the fourth definition of rupa and, thus, is the equivalent for the fourth jhana - in which, mind is translucent, there is neither pain nor pleasure and equanimity is perfect.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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