DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

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NAD
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DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by NAD »

Can someone please elucidate what is meant by designation and impingment-contact as highlighted below, and are there any other Sutta references?

“It was said: ‘With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact.’ How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the material body were all absent, would impingement-contact be discerned in the mental body?”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

NAD wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:20 pm Can someone please elucidate what is meant by designation and impingment-contact as highlighted below, and are there any other Sutta references?

“It was said: ‘With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact.’ How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the material body were all absent, would impingement-contact be discerned in the mental body?”
Impingement is sense contact. Traditionally the 5 senses but some people argue the 6th should be included too. Designation contact is naming what is experienced. Conceptualising it with sanna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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NAD
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by NAD »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:58 pm
Impingement is sense contact. Traditionally the 5 senses but some people argue the 6th should be included too. Designation contact is naming what is experienced. Conceptualising it with sanna.
Makes sense, is this described any other sutta you know of?
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by confusedlayman »

please explain with common example?
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:58 pm
NAD wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:20 pm Can someone please elucidate what is meant by designation and impingment-contact as highlighted below, and are there any other Sutta references?

“It was said: ‘With mentality-materiality as condition there is contact.’ How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the material body were all absent, would impingement-contact be discerned in the mental body?”
Impingement is sense contact. Traditionally the 5 senses but some people argue the 6th should be included too. Designation contact is naming what is experienced. Conceptualising it with sanna.
even form is conceived by mental conciousness so its thought based experience again and again. its only the mind phenomena that takes part in DO? name and form is jus indenfiying any dhamma as me and I.. if identification is not done, conciousness itself dont arise and nothing can be comphrended due to absence of knowingness.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

NAD wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:58 pm
Impingement is sense contact. Traditionally the 5 senses but some people argue the 6th should be included too. Designation contact is naming what is experienced. Conceptualising it with sanna.
Makes sense, is this described any other sutta you know of?
Not with those exact words but the general idea is found elsewhere.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:59 pm
even form is conceived by mental conciousness so its thought based experience again and again. its only the mind phenomena that takes part in DO?
I think the general idea is that we as humans experience but physical and mental aspects of life, and that both of these are empty and unsatisfactory.
name and form is jus indenfiying any dhamma as me and I.. if identification is not done, conciousness itself dont arise and nothing can be comphrended due to absence of knowingness.
I would say it's when there is ignorance then there is the notion of an atta, rather than being nāmarūpa itself. Nāmarūpa just means your mentality and body, or external forms and names. On conciousness, I don't think Buddhas and Arahants are unconscious whilst alive.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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NAD
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by NAD »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 6:59 pm even form is conceived by mental conciousness so its thought based experience again and again. its only the mind phenomena that takes part in DO? name and form is jus indenfiying any dhamma as me and I.. if identification is not done, conciousness itself dont arise and nothing can be comphrended due to absence of knowingness.
According to DN 15, consciousness is what descends into the womb. There cannot be cosnciousness without mentality-materiality.

“It was said: ‘With consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality.’

How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would mentality-materiality take shape in the womb?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would mentality-materiality be generated into this present state of being?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”

“If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would mentality-materiality grow up, develop, and reach maturity?”

“Certainly not, venerable sir.”
Jack19990101
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re -
"I don't think Buddhas and Arahants are unconscious whilst alive."

Metta.

Give it another go from element perspective.

Now there are two elements in play - deathless element, and consciousness-element.
Deathless-element don't do sankhara.
Consciousness-element arises and ceases, it is conditioned.

"I am conscious"(aka I am, aka conceit, aka being conscious, aka experience, aka existence) is basic manifestation of Avijja.
It is a state, conditioned phenomena.

Deathless is to transcend both being conscious and being unconscious.
During sleep, samadhi, deathless-element is exact the same as daily life.

If we ask arahant during his Samadhi and during his talk, "are u conscious?"
If it is deathless-element answering the question, it will be exact same, unconditioned.

End of the tale is that
Did we contemplate which element we are directing the question to.
santa100
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Re: DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta

Post by santa100 »

NAD wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:20 pm Can someone please elucidate what is meant by designation and impingment-contact as highlighted below, and are there any other Sutta references?
Some resources on those terms from a previous thread here.
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