Any buddhist argument against a eternal hell if an isvara existed?

[pudai]

A compounded thing can be pre-eternal and permanent through the sustenance of a remote cause that is absolutely simple,in it's (the compounded thing)aspect of essence,but also having a potentiality in it,since all contigent things are a conceptual mix of these two aspects,pure being and potentiality(pure potentiality doesn't exist like the buddhists claim).

it participates in being,and derives it's being from being in it's purity.

Neoplatonism answers the question of evil,and also corrects faulty notions of all other theistic systems.

Also non-self is just saying you are not that ultimate principle of prue actuality,but rather a mix of actuality and potentiality,which is agreed upon,it cannot refute the fact that even as conceptually compounded beings,we have a continuous self-same subjectivity,I know I was who I was in being 3 weeks ago,although My potentiality has changed,and all compounded things are of course composites of being and potential.

pure potentiality cannot exist,as nothing potential can essentially actualize itself.you need a purely actual being to actualize all potentialities even if just in a remote manner.it has no reality to inhere in.pure act can exist(the Monad).we know for a fact that actual and possible composites in different aspects exist in all contigent beings.

Kshanikavada makes little sense to me,One thing the brahma sutras got right is it's acurate criticism of it.

A copper wire, an iron rod, and battery have the potential to become a magnet and yet in those three things no magnet can be found.

because like all material and contingent things they are a mix of act+potential.God is pure act.Pure potentiality doesn't exist,pure possibility can never actualize itself.

In Hinduism the person is to consider them-self a Bhramin and nothing less and yet not ever admitting it to preserve the Atman... and in any use of the senses a blessing to the sons of Bhrama as all they find pleasurable in them an exhalation to him. At least that's their trinity and in doing dhyana the divine marriage takes place of shiva and shakti. Making up the four bhramaviharas the entire thing is signified by the swastika the first cause om and trinity in the Trishul. Such a thing existed before Gautama Buddha and still exists after him... since his religion to them and the Jains were heretical. He saw both of those paths as extremes and their highest attainment Nirodha taking the best of both of those his path is called the middle way.

Neoplatonics label the first cause as good and hence the divinity that goes along with goodness... nihilist would say it was bad or sin as a first cause seeing all of this existence as a fall from grace and can't wait to see it destroyed. Socrates directly pointed that he attained the unattainable with "All I know is; I know nothing." yet without the ability to teach it as Buddhists attempt too he's more accurately seen as a braggart or pratyeka.

All Gautama said to that philosophically was; the first cause cannot be found or identified and being called good or bad neither good nor bad is a grasping or clinging delusion as it is unknowable. That sanity was seeing the causes oneself has set into motion and meditating on the results of those actions to see if they were wise or unwise as a never ending present moment exists that has many names and philosophies due to all of the grasping and attachments coming and going out of that moment.

I know a past life I had as a Dervish; it wasn't a bad life it was more or less like a suburb of Greece and Rome many incarnations later; I still practiced the twirling/spinning although that life was lost on me until it was recovered the twirling was a root cause; that allowed the recovery and all the knowledge I had in that life. But as said it wasn't a bad life; It may sound strange but better than any I have had since... Islam and bowing to mecca and the prophet as Islam is called today was unheard of if it existed or not then? I don't know.

Orthodox is something that does not change despite the people that practice it. I can honestly say whatever path sticking to it as orthodox can be recalled only due to that orthodoxy... A long time ago it was the horn sound as an orthodox but as a pure sound or recall the reasons for blowing however varied widely but the horn has not changed... Such a thing in Buddhism the Orthodox I found is silence.

No matter the life? Past, present or future once realized? Silence was always there, always present, always a path of peace and always will be... seeing impermanence as it's only law in all that exists or ever could exist? Makes the holding onto silence once obtained; One hell of a ride; As it exists everywhere and always has.

[Tutareture]

A copper wire, an iron rod, and battery have the potential to become a magnet and yet in those three things no magnet can be found.

because like all material and contingent things they are a mix of act+potential.God is pure act.Pure potentiality doesn't exist,pure possibility can never actualize itself.

In Hinduism the person is to consider them-self a Bhramin and nothing less and yet not ever admitting it to preserve the Atman... and in any use of the senses a blessing to the sons of Bhrama as all they find pleasurable in them an exhalation to him. At least that's their trinity and in doing dhyana the divine marriage takes place of shiva and shakti. Making up the four bhramaviharas the entire thing is signified by the swastika the first cause om and trinity in the Trishul. Such a thing existed before Gautama Buddha and still exists after him... since his religion to them and the Jains were heretical. He saw both of those paths as extremes and their highest attainment Nirodha taking the best of both of those his path is called the middle way.

Neoplatonics label the first cause as good and hence the divinity that goes along with goodness... nihilist would say it was bad or sin as a first cause seeing all of this existence as a fall from grace and can't wait to see it destroyed. Socrates directly pointed that he attained the unattainable with "All I know is; I know nothing." yet without the ability to teach it as Buddhists attempt too he's more accurately seen as a braggart or pratyeka.

All Gautama said to that philosophically was; the first cause cannot be found or identified and being called good or bad neither good nor bad is a grasping or clinging delusion as it is unknowable. That sanity was seeing the causes oneself has set into motion and meditating on the results of those actions to see if they were wise or unwise as a never ending present moment exists that has many names and philosophies due to all of the grasping and attachments coming and going out of that moment.

I know a past life I had as a Dervish; it wasn't a bad life it was more or less like a suburb of Greece and Rome many incarnations later; I still practiced the twirling/spinning although that life was lost on me until it was recovered the twirling was a root cause; that allowed the recovery and all the knowledge I had in that life. But as said it wasn't a bad life; It may sound strange but better than any I have had since... Islam and bowing to mecca and the prophet as Islam is called today was unheard of if it existed or not then? I don't know.

Orthodox is something that does not change despite the people that practice it. I can honestly say whatever path sticking to it as orthodox can be recalled only due to that orthodoxy... A long time ago it was the horn sound as an orthodox but as a pure sound or recall the reasons for blowing however varied widely but the horn has not changed... Such a thing in Buddhism the Orthodox I found is silence.

No matter the life? Past, present or future once realized? Silence was always there, always present, always a path of peace and always will be... seeing impermanence as it's only law in all that exists or ever could exist? Makes the holding onto silence once obtained; One hell of a ride; As it exists everywhere and always has.

The argument of aquinas from degrees of perfection,proves the first cause is perfectly 'good'.when we say first cause we don't necessarily mean in a temporal successive manner,rather in a manner of being to being.

kshanikavada is disproven by simple experience,and can be disproven thru logic as the brahma sutra bhasyas have done accurately.

the self exists.otherwise karma and samskaras could not exist.

it seems buddhist criticisms of the self attack monism,at best.

madhyamika and yogacara say that the real produces the unreal,or in the former case that everything is unreal,which is a self-refuting statement,and can never be known if all propositions are themselves empty/unreal,including the proposition that all things are empty.

something unreal can never manifest,though we speak of relative-contingent and absolute realness,the latter grounding the former,the latter being what the various theological traditions call 'God'.

there is also the issue with the 5 skandha theory that there is no reason given as to how the skandhas are coordinated and united together,without a external cause for their unity.

the same goes with the buddhist atomic theory,if it is in atom's nature to unite they can never dissolve or be destroyed,seperated without a external intelligent cause,if the opposite,they can never unite without a external intelligent uniting cause.if neutral,they can neither begin to dissolve or unite without a external intelligent cause.

'replace'atoms with 'skandhas'and we have the same issue.

[Radix]

What are some arguments against a eternal hell by an isvara if he existed from a buddhist moralistic or ontological point of view?

For someone to burn in hell for all eternity, an eternal being would need to exist, and at that, that being would need to be of the nature to be able to suffer eternally.
Buddhism doesn't hold any of these doctrinal items.

A Hindu-style argument against eternal hell is that in order for a being to burn in hell for all eternity, that being would need to be ontologically separate from Ishvara; but since no being can exist separately from Ishvara (since everything emanates from Ishvara) and Ishvara is always happy, eternal hell is not possible.

[cappuccino]

an eternal being would need to exist

You change, alter


Otherwise you are eternal

[cappuccino]

Finite Karma results in finite hell

[pudai]

because like all material and contingent things they are a mix of act+potential.God is pure act.Pure potentiality doesn't exist,pure possibility can never actualize itself.

In Hinduism the person is to consider them-self a Bhramin and nothing less and yet not ever admitting it to preserve the Atman... and in any use of the senses a blessing to the sons of Bhrama as all they find pleasurable in them an exhalation to him. At least that's their trinity and in doing dhyana the divine marriage takes place of shiva and shakti. Making up the four bhramaviharas the entire thing is signified by the swastika the first cause om and trinity in the Trishul. Such a thing existed before Gautama Buddha and still exists after him... since his religion to them and the Jains were heretical. He saw both of those paths as extremes and their highest attainment Nirodha taking the best of both of those his path is called the middle way.

Neoplatonics label the first cause as good and hence the divinity that goes along with goodness... nihilist would say it was bad or sin as a first cause seeing all of this existence as a fall from grace and can't wait to see it destroyed. Socrates directly pointed that he attained the unattainable with "All I know is; I know nothing." yet without the ability to teach it as Buddhists attempt too he's more accurately seen as a braggart or pratyeka.

All Gautama said to that philosophically was; the first cause cannot be found or identified and being called good or bad neither good nor bad is a grasping or clinging delusion as it is unknowable. That sanity was seeing the causes oneself has set into motion and meditating on the results of those actions to see if they were wise or unwise as a never ending present moment exists that has many names and philosophies due to all of the grasping and attachments coming and going out of that moment.

I know a past life I had as a Dervish; it wasn't a bad life it was more or less like a suburb of Greece and Rome many incarnations later; I still practiced the twirling/spinning although that life was lost on me until it was recovered the twirling was a root cause; that allowed the recovery and all the knowledge I had in that life. But as said it wasn't a bad life; It may sound strange but better than any I have had since... Islam and bowing to mecca and the prophet as Islam is called today was unheard of if it existed or not then? I don't know.

Orthodox is something that does not change despite the people that practice it. I can honestly say whatever path sticking to it as orthodox can be recalled only due to that orthodoxy... A long time ago it was the horn sound as an orthodox but as a pure sound or recall the reasons for blowing however varied widely but the horn has not changed... Such a thing in Buddhism the Orthodox I found is silence.

No matter the life? Past, present or future once realized? Silence was always there, always present, always a path of peace and always will be... seeing impermanence as it's only law in all that exists or ever could exist? Makes the holding onto silence once obtained; One hell of a ride; As it exists everywhere and always has.

The argument of aquinas from degrees of perfection,proves the first cause is perfectly 'good'.when we say first cause we don't necessarily mean in a temporal successive manner,rather in a manner of being to being.

kshanikavada is disproven by simple experience,and can be disproven thru logic as the brahma sutra bhasyas have done accurately.

the self exists.otherwise karma and samskaras could not exist.

it seems buddhist criticisms of the self attack monism,at best.

madhyamika and yogacara say that the real produces the unreal,or in the former case that everything is unreal,which is a self-refuting statement,and can never be known if all propositions are themselves empty/unreal,including the proposition that all things are empty.

something unreal can never manifest,though we speak of relative-contingent and absolute realness,the latter grounding the former,the latter being what the various theological traditions call 'God'.

there is also the issue with the 5 skandha theory that there is no reason given as to how the skandhas are coordinated and united together,without a external cause for their unity.

the same goes with the buddhist atomic theory,if it is in atom's nature to unite they can never dissolve or be destroyed,seperated without a external intelligent cause,if the opposite,they can never unite without a external intelligent uniting cause.if neutral,they can neither begin to dissolve or unite without a external intelligent cause.

'replace'atoms with 'skandhas'and we have the same issue.

ignorance is the leading cause of suffering; In the thirst for knowledge to dispel ignorance? Even more ignorance arises.. in such a manner a duality arises of both ignorance and wisdom.

It is said that nirvana is the uncreated meaning once one is done creating and grasping after knowledge; once enlightened that skandha is not self and sankhara is not self then they can stop reverse the wheel and dwell in that that is already created and in doing so there is no self that could exist. Such a thing is simply called the three refuges.

[Tutareture]

In Hinduism the person is to consider them-self a Bhramin and nothing less and yet not ever admitting it to preserve the Atman... and in any use of the senses a blessing to the sons of Bhrama as all they find pleasurable in them an exhalation to him. At least that's their trinity and in doing dhyana the divine marriage takes place of shiva and shakti. Making up the four bhramaviharas the entire thing is signified by the swastika the first cause om and trinity in the Trishul. Such a thing existed before Gautama Buddha and still exists after him... since his religion to them and the Jains were heretical. He saw both of those paths as extremes and their highest attainment Nirodha taking the best of both of those his path is called the middle way.

Neoplatonics label the first cause as good and hence the divinity that goes along with goodness... nihilist would say it was bad or sin as a first cause seeing all of this existence as a fall from grace and can't wait to see it destroyed. Socrates directly pointed that he attained the unattainable with "All I know is; I know nothing." yet without the ability to teach it as Buddhists attempt too he's more accurately seen as a braggart or pratyeka.

All Gautama said to that philosophically was; the first cause cannot be found or identified and being called good or bad neither good nor bad is a grasping or clinging delusion as it is unknowable. That sanity was seeing the causes oneself has set into motion and meditating on the results of those actions to see if they were wise or unwise as a never ending present moment exists that has many names and philosophies due to all of the grasping and attachments coming and going out of that moment.

I know a past life I had as a Dervish; it wasn't a bad life it was more or less like a suburb of Greece and Rome many incarnations later; I still practiced the twirling/spinning although that life was lost on me until it was recovered the twirling was a root cause; that allowed the recovery and all the knowledge I had in that life. But as said it wasn't a bad life; It may sound strange but better than any I have had since... Islam and bowing to mecca and the prophet as Islam is called today was unheard of if it existed or not then? I don't know.

Orthodox is something that does not change despite the people that practice it. I can honestly say whatever path sticking to it as orthodox can be recalled only due to that orthodoxy... A long time ago it was the horn sound as an orthodox but as a pure sound or recall the reasons for blowing however varied widely but the horn has not changed... Such a thing in Buddhism the Orthodox I found is silence.

No matter the life? Past, present or future once realized? Silence was always there, always present, always a path of peace and always will be... seeing impermanence as it's only law in all that exists or ever could exist? Makes the holding onto silence once obtained; One hell of a ride; As it exists everywhere and always has.

The argument of aquinas from degrees of perfection,proves the first cause is perfectly 'good'.when we say first cause we don't necessarily mean in a temporal successive manner,rather in a manner of being to being.

kshanikavada is disproven by simple experience,and can be disproven thru logic as the brahma sutra bhasyas have done accurately.

the self exists.otherwise karma and samskaras could not exist.

it seems buddhist criticisms of the self attack monism,at best.

madhyamika and yogacara say that the real produces the unreal,or in the former case that everything is unreal,which is a self-refuting statement,and can never be known if all propositions are themselves empty/unreal,including the proposition that all things are empty.

something unreal can never manifest,though we speak of relative-contingent and absolute realness,the latter grounding the former,the latter being what the various theological traditions call 'God'.

there is also the issue with the 5 skandha theory that there is no reason given as to how the skandhas are coordinated and united together,without a external cause for their unity.

the same goes with the buddhist atomic theory,if it is in atom's nature to unite they can never dissolve or be destroyed,seperated without a external intelligent cause,if the opposite,they can never unite without a external intelligent uniting cause.if neutral,they can neither begin to dissolve or unite without a external intelligent cause.

'replace'atoms with 'skandhas'and we have the same issue.

ignorance is the leading cause of suffering; In the thirst for knowledge to dispel ignorance? Even more ignorance arises.. in such a manner a duality arises of both ignorance and wisdom.

It is said that nirvana is the uncreated meaning once one is done creating and grasping after knowledge; once enlightened that skandha is not self and sankhara is not self then they can stop reverse the wheel and dwell in that that is already created and in doing so there is no self that could exist. Such a thing is simply called the three refuges.

A unconditioend conditioner- a fact of reality or nothing could exist,cannot go out of existance,as existance is it's essence,and it is thus immutable aswell.

Generosity is a perfection,and thus it bestows being on others,thru intermediaries-being one and thus only being able to create 'one'as a effect of his generous being neccesarily.He desires nothing,lacking nothing.He is pure Being.

Kshanikavada seems to have no candle to the Doctrine of God in neoplatonism/akbarian sufism.

I'm not saying it is so definitvely,but that is how it seems to me.

[pudai]

A unconditioend conditioner- a fact of reality or nothing could exist,cannot go out of existance,as existance is it's essence,and it is thus immutable aswell.

Generosity is a perfection,and thus it bestows being on others,thru intermediaries-being one and thus only being able to create 'one'as a effect of his generous being neccesarily.He desires nothing,lacking nothing.He is pure Being.

Kshanikavada seems to have no candle to the Doctrine of God in neoplatonism/akbarian sufism.

I'm not saying it is so definitvely,but that is how it seems to me.

What anyone knows requires a higher fetter to know it without them knowing you know it essentially through them... why is it a fetter? When they themself can access that knowledge and share it with you as their own fetter to it.

Lower fetter and higher fetter would be them sharing and their fetters alone... not being able to listen with clarity what they say would be one's own fetters that have yet to be cut.

Lower and higher fetters cut that emptiness as form would be like a clay pot the clear hearing like water flowing in it not rippling against the source as their source flows out with one's own fetters or attachments and the eye also absorbed can clearly see all the imagery that they are pouring forth in knowing that in sharing their breath that light has gone out from it enlightening the entire scene as if one were present in that moment.

Any false labeled as in not right speech not right livelihood etc of the eightfold path that beings are on knowingly or not? Then the clay pot starts to muddy and cease to remain clear as it is unclear to them... despite protests of others Gautama would drink from such muddy waters and instruct them back to the path of clarity... having already faced the potter and his wheel as seen in the link of formation as a nidana.

Ni in translation means suffering of the entire path of samsara and that pain is noble as the word dana is translated as freely given... meaning the vipasana of the entire path lay in the outer rim while the samatha practice is the light to dark and remaining calm no matter what duality of the the three poisons cause as an arising. Notice Vipassana has the word asana in it meaning assuming that position or becoming that link using the link of becoming to do so.

The concept of trying to escape that wheel is stupid it has to be conquered as Gautamas father conquered it... this is what the Thai tradition seeks to do in noticing what link or nidana and mentally turning it knowing which link is arising and passing... An abbot of that path said such a thing is infinite in other words a futility but it was the path he learned from his abbot and preceptor in coming and going from Wat to Wat. Ordinary beings cannot see him at the level he is on as someone that wanted to go to that Wat on a pilgrimage wanted to get into a fight that there was no "monk" doing walking meditation even though the fellow was less than 15 feet away right in front of us.

Knowing what being an abbot is like through a past life in Chan in the early days of Zen and being seen as a skinny barbarian in silk? One had to constantly say; Buddhadhamma not bodhidamma in attempting to correct the path that a remounced muslim grasped wrong and set up a sort of fatima in Japan... Korean Son paid Chan to sort it out being the two dhamma doors or elders to see what happened in the younger path of Zen.

Why did Bodhidhamma come from the North? Snow isn't a desert but leaves you just as blind but not as thirsty. Lankavara suttra(a bodhidhamma one) That a female monastery in Ceylon paid for to be written and the so called path to purity is the result. As Thansario bikkhu has pointed out has many errors that are not canonical even though it is taken as such... but it gives an accurate timeline for when Zen was the smaller vehicle like the Thai forest one is today. All of the Bodhidhamma comes from etc was the man claimed to be enlightened so the entire path used to incite him and he'd fly into a fit of rage then be locked in a cave as punishment... His eight long years staring at a wall spent on Han Shan with a Shaolin(furthest shore) monk as his guard.

Some see it as a bridge since "Bodhidhamma" renounced his being a Muslim but it took awhile for him to shed his Muslim self to actually see himself once seeing himself he didn't like it and turned to Buddhism to get rid of that self. Soto is the one path of Zen and Chan being one as orthodox and extremely strict... as no change is embraced as the only essential teaching or core that cannot really be taught since change is everywhere. In that tradition a "joshu" is the devil and his face is known with no others allowed only until there is a mask ceremony does Soto allow a face to change in order to save it having been lost in the light of truth... but that mask and unmask was a result of that muslim influence where in their tradition is monkey mind and monkey face that people call the Ma Ha.

But to say what the real path of purity is... that clinging self of I am a blah blah blah the realized just start rubbing their hands together like flies on a freshly dead elephant not aware that it is dead yet. Not until it gets to the Zen bones does that self start jumping and leaping like the Tibetan new years likes to display with skeletons.

When moving from birth into the becoming link... as fruition: all one's past lives are known, all of the three worlds kamma is known(as that was the birth and death link), and knowledge of one's deliverance from birth and death into that of becoming is known. Those are the certainties... that there is nothing left to be done as a holy life as far as the path of Buddhism goes.

Beyond that is service to the path; As sutra is to be thought of like a crime and knowing if it is where it belongs who wrote it etc is a case by case basis. Why? Shakya was his clan name being a Muni or 'silent'. Is a direct pointing of who and what he was from and how he learned what he learned to earn the title of Buddha. His path united the Jains and Ramas in peace for a very long time exporting it was in the hope that such peace could occur elsewhere ending duality the same as it did there.