Femininity and Masculinity

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Jason
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Jason »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:18 pm Coëmgenu
And your stance is that this is not at all a product of socialization and how women are raised to be women, much like how men are raised to be men and instructed not to do various womanly things? How about women have less hormones in their brains related to aggression? That's an actual difference, not "they flirt differently."
We are essentially getting into the nature vs nurture debate here. From the Abhidhamma POV, as far as I can tell, its heavily down to "nature" i.e. dhammas.
How does that square with this/that causality and the causal determinism that underlies the processes of arising and ceasing?
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jason wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:18 pm Coëmgenu
And your stance is that this is not at all a product of socialization and how women are raised to be women, much like how men are raised to be men and instructed not to do various womanly things? How about women have less hormones in their brains related to aggression? That's an actual difference, not "they flirt differently."
We are essentially getting into the nature vs nurture debate here. From the Abhidhamma POV, as far as I can tell, its heavily down to "nature" i.e. dhammas.
How does that square with this/that causality and the causal determinism that underlies the processes of arising and ceasing?
Could you expand?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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zerotime
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by zerotime »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:14 pm How about women have less hormones in their brains related to aggression?
also some people wish to take hormones to satisfy their trends towards femininity or masculininity. It also shows rupa femenine and masculine are real so they are pursuing one or another.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by zerotime »

Jason wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:36 am If there are stark differences, many of them historically seem to be determined by the time and culture and ultimately changeable, which makes it difficult for me to see them as something more real or solid if you understand me. I'd agree that, conventional speaking, these things can said to be true at certain times and places. But I find the Abhidhamma's treatment of them here confusing.
of course. Culture and society can change the idea and image from the feminine and masculine although no the final reality of both. It doesn't care if today women prefers pink colour while men blue, and this change yesterday or tomorrow. This is just the idea, mind image, nama. Femininity and masculinity are rupa then different preferences for this or that (whatever this and whatever that) will persist.

What the Abhidhamma cannot satisfy is a social and biological explanation

As previously said, the problem is when we carry a social, scientific or whatever "worldly" knowledge approach to know dhammas without doing a needed switch. Same could happens with some artist; he couldn't expect to find beauty if he is painting searching wavelengths instead colours. Because the beauty wouldn't be his real purpose.

Purpose of Abhidhamma is to be a help for anatta and nibbana

What is our purpose?.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Coëmgenu »

zerotime wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:48 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:14 pm How about women have less hormones in their brains related to aggression?
also some people wish to take hormones to satisfy their trends towards femininity or masculininity. It also shows rupa femenine and masculine are real so they are pursuing one or another.
That certain people wish to take hormones to satisfy their "trends" would actually only establish that certain people have "trends," not that these "rupa femenine and masculine" are "real." I'm not contesting they are "real," especially if Theravāda Abhidhamma insists they are and takes an approach of naïve realism with regards to gender much like the naïve approach it takes to the four great elements (i.e. there is no water element, as that itself is composite. This is in direct opposition to Buddhist Abhidharmas of various schools, as they had no way of knowing that water was a composite of hydrogen and oxygen while systematizing and inventing these new Buddhisms).

I can respect naïvety.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by zerotime »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:33 pm I'm not contesting they are "real," especially if Theravāda Abhidhamma insists they are and takes an approach of naïve realism
How do you define "realism"?
with regards to gender much like the naïve approach it takes to the four great elements (i.e. there is no water element, as that itself is composite. This is in direct opposition to Buddhist Abhidharmas of various schools, as they had no way of knowing that water was a composite of hydrogen and oxygen while systematizing and inventing these new Buddhisms).
I can respect naïvety.
well, the "water element" doesn't have to do directly with the common water despite the name. Water element is "cohesion" which is present in all matter including water. It is not the water neither H20.

In the case of femininity and masculininity it is a type of rupa which extends in a similar way of body-sense
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Coëmgenu »

zerotime wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:56 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:33 pm I'm not contesting they are "real," especially if Theravāda Abhidhamma insists they are and takes an approach of naïve realism
How do you define "realism"?
with regards to gender much like the naïve approach it takes to the four great elements (i.e. there is no water element, as that itself is composite. This is in direct opposition to Buddhist Abhidharmas of various schools, as they had no way of knowing that water was a composite of hydrogen and oxygen while systematizing and inventing these new Buddhisms).
I can respect naïvety.
well, the "water element" doesn't have to do directly with the common water despite the name. Water element is "cohesion" which is present in all matter including water. It is not the water neither H20.
Are you sure it has little to do with common water, or is that a modern apologetic?

Either way, it is based on a naïve realist categorization of water based on its surface-level characteristics that would be evident to a human without things like an electron microscope. The fire element is even worse in this regard, as there is no such thing as "fire" independent of reactions that produce it.

I don't know too much about the Pāli Abhidhamma tradition, but the Sarvāstivādin tradition categorizes the conditioned as being different forms of composites of four great elemental substances, rather than these elemental substances being themselves composites derived of even more subtle materials (i.e. molecules, etc.).

I am defining realism as in the sense of naïve realism:
In social psychology, naïve realism is the human tendency to believe that we see the world around us objectively.
It appears there is a water-like substance that is accompanied by cohesion. It doesn't appear to us, via our senses unaided at least, that this cohesion is a byproduct of the interactions of electrons.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:02 pm I am defining realism as in the sense of naïve realism:
In social psychology, naïve realism is the human tendency to believe that we see the world around us objectively.
It appears there is a water-like substance that is accompanied by cohesion. It doesn't appear to us, via our senses unaided at least, that this cohesion is a byproduct of the interactions of electrons.
I have to take this back. I am actually defining it according to Scottish common-sense realism. Naïve realism apparently has more to do with cognitive bias.

The point is, the Abhidharma project claims to tell us how things are, but it actually only tells us how things appear to human beings and how past human beings have conceived of them -- such as comprised of a complex of 4 great elements.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by zerotime »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:02 pm Are you sure it has little to do with common water, or is that a modern apologetic?
Either way, it is based on a naïve realist categorization of water based on its surface-level characteristics that would be evident to a human without things like an electron microscope. The fire element is even worse in this regard, as there is no such thing as "fire" independent of reactions that produce it.
I wonder if this could be in a reverse way. With the need to put a name to the cohesion present in matter maybe "water" was the best name available.
I don't know too much about the Pali Abhidhamma tradition, but the Sarvastivadin tradition categorizes the conditioned as being different forms of composites of four great elemental substances, rather than these elemental substances being themselves composites derived of even more subtle materials (i.e. molecules, etc.).
neither I'm any expert in Abhidhamma. Just I know some things. In fact I believe Abhidhamma is finally a tool. Abhidhamma is not a description of nibbana although it doesn't mean it is wrong; I believe it draws a deeper layer for the understanding. It can be a powerful help although as any other tool, finally it can be used or not.
I am defining realism as in the sense of naïve realism:
In social psychology, naïve realism is the human tendency to believe that we see the world around us objectively.
It appears there is a water-like substance that is accompanied by cohesion. It doesn't appear to us, via our senses unaided at least, that this cohesion is a byproduct of the interactions of electrons.
well but in example when we touch something, that touching is real. It isn't?. We can touch rupa but no nama. And from here we know there is one reality named rupa. Nama is the arising idea and mind-image. Then we can have the mental image of that previous situation while there is no touching: that's nama. And in that way the whole building can start to get its sense.

We cannot see or touch particles like electrons or photons. No personal sense experience of that. And then we are in the same situation regarding a Reality explained with dhammas. Different types of knowledge for different purposes. This is not a problem to confront or to deny but of different frameworks for different purposes. And then appears the same question: What do we wish to discover?
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Mr Man »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:14 pm
And your stance is that this is not at all a product of socialization and how women are raised to be women, much like how men are raised to be men and instructed not to do various womanly things? How about women have less hormones in their brains related to aggression? That's an actual difference, not "they flirt differently."

Go to page two and use control+F to find "bhava." He's referencing earlier in the thread.
Okay thanks. I was thinking of a story I believe is in the Vinaya of a monk who took on the characteristics of a female and became a nun.
That did indeed happen supposedly. The moral of the story was "You ought not look at Venerables with lust if you are the same gender as them," or at least that's the moral I got out of it.
Hi Coëmgenu

I think you are thinking of the story of "The Story of Soreyya" who is a laywoman
Soreyya falls in love with the Elder Mahākaccāyana after having seen him in the bath. His wish to marry the Elder results in the instant transformation of his sex from male to female. She is then married off (to someone else) and bears children, and is eventually reversed into a male after having asked forgiveness from Mahākaccāyana.
I was thinking of this
‘Now at one time, the sign of a woman [ittthilinga] appeared to a monk. They [the other monks] told this matter to the lord. He said: “Monks, I allow a teacher [upajjha, preceptor, spiritual teacher] to meet with nuns during the rains, as for the upasampadā ordination [higher ordination], so as in the presence of the nuns away from those offences which they have in common with monks; but in those offences of monks which are offences not in common with nuns, there is no offence (for the nuns).’
‘Now at one time, the sign of a man [purisalinga] appeared to a nun. They [the other monks] told this matter to the lord. He said: “Monks, I allow a teacher to meet with the monks during the rains, as for the upasampadā ordination, so as in the presence of monks to turn the monks away from those offences which they have in common with nuns; but in those offences of nuns which are offences not in common with monks, there is no offence (for the monks).’ (Vin. iii 35 PTS)[3]

Quotes taken from "Gender transformed and meta-gendered enlightenment: Reading Buddhist narratives as paradigms of inclusiveness"

https://www.pucsp.br/rever/rv3_2006/t_scherer.htm
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Mr Man »

Mr Man wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:09 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm
Mr Man wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm

Okay thanks. I was thinking of a story I believe is in the Vinaya of a monk who took on the characteristics of a female and became a nun.
That did indeed happen supposedly. The moral of the story was "You ought not look at Venerables with lust if you are the same gender as them," or at least that's the moral I got out of it.
Hi Coëmgenu

I think you are thinking of the story of "The Story of Soreyya" who is a laywoman
Soreyya falls in love with the Elder Mahākaccāyana after having seen him in the bath. His wish to marry the Elder results in the instant transformation of his sex from male to female. She is then married off (to someone else) and bears children, and is eventually reversed into a male after having asked forgiveness from Mahākaccāyana.
I was thinking of this
‘Now at one time, the sign of a woman [ittthilinga] appeared to a monk. They [the other monks] told this matter to the lord. He said: “Monks, I allow a teacher [upajjha, preceptor, spiritual teacher] to meet with nuns during the rains, as for the upasampadā ordination [higher ordination], so as in the presence of the nuns away from those offences which they have in common with monks; but in those offences of monks which are offences not in common with nuns, there is no offence (for the nuns).’
‘Now at one time, the sign of a man [purisalinga] appeared to a nun. They [the other monks] told this matter to the lord. He said: “Monks, I allow a teacher to meet with the monks during the rains, as for the upasampadā ordination, so as in the presence of monks to turn the monks away from those offences which they have in common with nuns; but in those offences of nuns which are offences not in common with monks, there is no offence (for the monks).’ (Vin. iii 35 PTS)[3]

Quotes taken from "Gender transformed and meta-gendered enlightenment: Reading Buddhist narratives as paradigms of inclusiveness"

https://www.pucsp.br/rever/rv3_2006/t_scherer.htm
Zerotime, can the idea of "gender transformation" align with the idea of masculine and feminine as "ultimate realities" from the Abhidhamma?

Thank you.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by zerotime »

Mr Man wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:15 am Zerotime, can the idea of "gender transformation" align with the idea of masculine and feminine as "ultimate realities" from the Abhidhamma?
I don't know. Sorry no answer about those supernatural episodes. Maybe other people with more knowledge can know that.

Although as Coëmgenu (I believe) suggests, the purpose in those episodes is to transcend attachment to lust and attraction, instead transcend the gender in itself.
Gender is kamma for the attachment to live and -self. Different genders means attraction so the nature can be perpetuated, then this is an strong affirmation for the perpetuation of live and -self. Homosexual trend can appear because kamma and the variety of predominance and faculty control and attraction would go to the same sex, although regarding that blind energy it is the same at all. Heterosexual and homosexual has the same problem in this issue, which is attachment. Attachment is very tolerant with all us, no discrimination.

Definitive detachment from sex can appear at anagamin stage.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Mr Man »

zerotime wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:19 pm
Mr Man wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:15 am Zerotime, can the idea of "gender transformation" align with the idea of masculine and feminine as "ultimate realities" from the Abhidhamma?
I don't know. Sorry no answer about those supernatural episodes. Maybe other people with more knowledge can know that.

Although as Coëmgenu (I believe) suggests, the purpose in those episodes is to transcend attachment to lust and attraction, instead transcend the gender in itself.
Gender is kamma for the attachment to live and -self. Different genders means attraction so the nature can be perpetuated, then this is an strong affirmation for the perpetuation of live and -self. Homosexual trend can appear because kamma and the variety of predominance and faculty control and attraction would go to the same sex, although regarding that blind energy it is the same at all. Heterosexual and homosexual has the same problem in this issue, which is attachment. Attachment is very tolerant with all us, no discrimination.

Definitive detachment from sex can appear at anagamin stage.
Thank you.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Coëmgenu »

zerotime wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:02 pm Are you sure it has little to do with common water, or is that a modern apologetic?
Either way, it is based on a naïve realist categorization of water based on its surface-level characteristics that would be evident to a human without things like an electron microscope. The fire element is even worse in this regard, as there is no such thing as "fire" independent of reactions that produce it.
I wonder if this could be in a reverse way. With the need to put a name to the cohesion present in matter maybe "water" was the best name available.
This would work, but cohesion is actually many forces: gravity, weak nuclear force, etc. What seems to make more sense to me is that understanding the material workings of the cosmos is unrelated to the path of the Buddha, and that intermixed with the path of the Buddha in Abhidharma literatures are past notions of the material workings of the cosmos. The Abhidharma description of these material workings needn't be accurate, because the material workings are not important IMO. However, there are certain kinds of Ābhidharmika "fundamentalisms," we might want to say, that pop up when moderns used to notions like "Biblical literalism" etc. read the Abhidhamma as it describes the material world through the eyes of medieval Indian scholasticists.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Femininity and Masculinity

Post by Ontheway »

Citta Cetasikas Rupa Nibbāna

There are ultimate realities.

Since Masculinity and Femininity are grouped under derived Rupa, then they are ultimate realities.

There is only Masculinity and Femininity, no others.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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