the Ayatanas and Paticca-samuppada

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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robertk
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the Ayatanas and Paticca-samuppada

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:34 pmWhat is conditionality? Does it not mean how consciousness arises (every moment) based on a sense organ coming into contact with a sense object? There are 6 of these, and in Chinese agama suttas they call these six realms. And I truly believe these are the only realms we experience.
In one of these realms, name and form come together creating a new consciousnes every second.
Understanding this is crucial to the serious practitioner.
Dear Pulsar
This is correct. And surely that is taught in the Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Commentaries.

As you say there is a new consciousness every second: Indeed a new one every split second.
From a discussion with Sujin Boriharnwanaket:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sujin- ... deos/100/4
In Thailand some people spend their time going north, west, south, to look for dhamma. But when that anyone understands what dhamma is, one doesn’t have to go anywhere, because any moment is dhamma. So it depends on understanding from hearing and considering as pariyatti[intellectual undersatnding], which can condition patipatti[direct understanding], which the Thai use to term patibat. Patipatti means that which reaches reality with right understanding from pariyatti.

Without hearing and considering as pariyatti, no conditions for direct awareness to begin to understand reality, which is so very deep. For example, who can think about that which is eye-base or eye-sense as ayatana, at moment of seeing. At this moment, what is seeing is ayatana, and seeing itself, the manayatana, and the pasada rupa is cakkhayatana and cetasikas which arises with the seeing is dhammayatana. All four have to be present at that moment, or now at this moment. So people just read about ayatana and can remember the six and the twelve, but not knowing ayatanas right now, the living ones, the real ones, not the past ones. So by understanding ayatana at moment of experiencing anything, it is ayatana, right then. And not just one ayatana, not just only the inner and the outer, but citta cetasikas and rupas right then. All are conditioned just to condition one moment of seeing..[...]
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robertk
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Re: the Ayatanas

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You asked "Can you explain how suffering arises in a simple manner, (let us imagine the words sutta and abhidhamma do not exist) just based on Paticca samuppada, Buddha's fundamental teaching."

This is maybe not so simple but from the relevant section of the Visuddhimagga:
Chapter
XV11 Dependent origination
113 "but how does a man who is confused about these
things perform these three kinds of formations?
Firstly, when he is confused about death, instead of
taking death thus ‘death in every case is break up of
aggregates(khandas, not-self)’ he figures that it is
lasting being’s transmigration to another incarnation
and so on".

115 “when he is confused about the round of rebirths,
instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured
thus: 'an endless chain of aggregates(khandas) of
elements(dhatus) bases(ayatanas) that carries on
unbrokenly is what is called ‘the round or rebirths’
he figures that it is a lasting being that goes from
this world to another world, that comes from another
world to this world"
117"when he is confused about independently-arisen
states, instead of taking the occurence of formations
to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a
self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes
action…”
161 “a mere state that has got its conditions ushers
in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate
from the past, with no cause in the past it is not.
So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when
it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of,
saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not
a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither
transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested
here without cause from that”… "

273 “Becomings wheel reveals no known beginning; no
maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold
voidness,”"

313 “one who sees this rightly abandons the self view
by understanding the absence of a maker. One who sees
it wrongly clings to the moral -inefficacy of action
view because he does not perceive that the causative
function of ignorance etc us established as a law…”
314 “[and so] let a wise man with mindfulness so
practice that he may begin to find a footing in the
deeps of the dependent origination”
Note the emphasis put on the pure conditionality of each moment. The wheel of birth and death, both momentarily (khanika) and conventional (summutti) is explained, and no need for any self in any of it.
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robertk
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Re: the Ayatanas and Paticca-samuppada

Post by robertk »

It helps to know the basics of the ayatanas.
From Nina van Gorkom
Åyatana deals with the association of inner and outer åyatanas. Thus, åyatana always refers to the meeting, the association of several realities. When seeing arises there is the association of eyesense, visible object, seeing and its accompanying cetasikas. These are only åyatanas at the moment they arise and associate. The classification by way of åyatanas shows us that seeing and all the other realities are associating because of conditions. Nobody can make them arise, they are not self. Here we see again that the Abhidhamma points to the goal, the development of right understanding.
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robertk
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Re: the Ayatanas and Paticca-samuppada

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Now some short quotes from the Abhidhamma Pitaka on Ayatanas
from the
THE BOOK OF ANALYSIS
(VIBHANGA)
THE SECOND BOOK OF THE ABHIDHAMMA PITAKA
Translated by
PATHAMAKYAW ASHIN THITTILA

2. ANALYSIS OF THE BASES
1. ANALYSIS ACCORDING TO THE DISCOURSES
154. [70] The twelve bases are: The eye base, visible base, ear
base, audible base, nose base, odorous base, tongue base, sapid base,
body base, tangible base, mind base, ideational base.
The eye is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable
thing; visible (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul,
changeable things. The ear is impermanent, suffering, without soul,
a changeable thing; audible (objects) are impermanent, suffering,
without soul, changeable things. The nose is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; odorous (objects) are
impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things. The
tongue is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing;
sapid (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable
things. The body is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a
changeable thing; tangible (objects) are impermanent, suffering,
without soul, changeable things. The mind is impermanent,
suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; ideational (objects) are
impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things.
(HERE ENDS) ANALYSIS ACCORDING TO TH E
DISCOURSES
2. ANALYSIS ACCORDING TO ABHIDHAMMA
155. The twelve bases are: The eye base, ear base, nose base,
tongue base, body base, mind base, visible base, audible base,
odorous base, sapid base, tangible base, ideational base.
156. Therein what is eye base? That eye which, deriving from the
four great essentials, is sensitive surface, included in the body,
invisible, impingent; [71] by means of which invisible impingent
eye (one) saw, sees, will see or may see visible impingent visible
(object); this is eye; this is eye base; this is eye element; this is controlling faculty of eye; this is a world; this is a door; this is an ocean;
this is lucence; this is a field; this is a basis; this is a guide; this is
guidance; this is the near shore; this is an empty village. This is
called eye base. (1)
Many more pages on this topic..

and in the same book on Dependent Origination:
5. CAUSAL TETRAD
248. What states are bad? At the time when bad consciousness
arises accompanied by mental pleasure, associated with wrong
view, having visible object, audible object, odorous object, sapid
object, tangible object, ideational object or is concerned with
whatever (object); at that time because of ignorance there is
activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of
consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is the sixth
base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact
there is feeling; because of feeling there is craving; because of
craving there is attachment; because of attachment there is becoming; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is
ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering.
249. Therein what is ignorance? That which is absence of
knowledge, absence of vision, :P: barrier of ignorance, the bad
root of dullness. This is called ignorance.
P = See para. 180.
Analysis of Dependent Origination 189
Therein what is ‘because of ignorance there is activity’?
That which is volition, being volitional, state of being volitional.
This is called ‘because of ignorance there is activity’.
Therein what is ‘because o f activity there is consciousness ’ ?
That which is consciousness, mind, ideation, heart, lucence, mind,
mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate
of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, mindconsciousness-element. This is called ‘because of activity there is
consciousness’.
Therein what is ‘because of consciousness there is m in d ’?
The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of
mental concomitants. This is called ‘ because of consciousness there
is m ind’.
Therein what is ‘because of m ind there is the sixth base’?
That which is consciousness, mind, ideation, heart, lucence, mind,
mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate
of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, mindconsciousness-element. This is called ‘because of mind there is
the sixth base ’.
Therein what is ‘because of the sixth base there is contact’?
That which is contact, contacting, act of contacting, state of contacting. This is called ‘because of the sixth base there is contact’.
Therein what is ‘because o f contact there is feelin g’?
That which is mental ease, mental pleasure, easeful pleasant
experience born of mental contact, easeful pleasant feeling born
of mental contact. This is called ‘ because of contact there is feeling ’.
[145] Therein what is ‘because o f feeling there is craving’? That
which is lusting, infatuation, seduction, compliance, passion,
passionate lust, infatuation of consciousness. This is called ‘ because
of feeling there is craving’.
Therein what is ‘because of craving there is attachm ent’?
That which is wrong view, resorting to wrong view, jungle of
wrong view, wilderness of wrong view, distortion of wrong view,
vacillation
so we see that the Abhidhamma has much on ayatanas and paticca-samupadda.

And from the Abhidhammatta-sangaha which I recommended earlier:

§3 The Basic Formula

Therein:
(1) Dependent on ignorance arise kammic formations.
(2) Dependent on kammic formations arises consciousness.
(3) Dependent on consciousness arises mind-and-matter.
(4) Dependent on mind-and-matter arise the six sense bases.
(5) Dependent on the six sense bases arises contact.
(6) Dependent on contact arises feeling.
(7) Dependent on feeling arises craving.


VIII. COMPENDIUM OF CONDITIONALITY 295

(8) Dependent on craving arises clinging.
(9) Dependent on clinging arises existence.
(10) Dependent on existence arises birth.
(11) Dependent on birth arise decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair.
Thus arises this whole mass of suffering.
Herein, this is the method of dependent arising.

Guide to §3[added by bhikkhu Bodhi]
The method of dependent arising: Dependent arising is essentially an account of the causal structure of the round of existence (vatta), dis-closing the conditions that sustain the wheel of birth and death and make it revolve from one existence to another. In the Commentaries dependent arising is defined as the arising of effects evenly in dependence on a conjunction of conditions .. This implies that no single cause can produce an effect, nor does only one effect arise from a given cause. Rather, there is always a collection of conditions giving rise to a collection of effects. When, in the familiar formula, one state is declared to be the condition for another, this is said in order to single out the chief condition among a collection of conditions and relate it to the most important effect among a collection of effects.
asahi
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Re: the Ayatanas and Paticca-samuppada

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:34 pmWhat is conditionality? Does it not mean how consciousness arises (every moment) based on a sense organ coming into contact with a sense object? There are 6 of these, and in Chinese agama suttas they call these six realms. And I truly believe these are the only realms we experience.
In one of these realms, name and form come together creating a new consciousnes every second.
Understanding this is crucial to the serious practitioner.

Paticca-samuppada more accurate if one translate as correlation instead of conditionality .
No bashing No gossiping
Ontheway
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Re: the Ayatanas and Paticca-samuppada

Post by Ontheway »

Correlation is not accurate. It does not fit into this maxim:

“Imasmim sati idam hōti, imassa uppādā idam uppajjāti; imasmim asati idam na hōti, imassa nirōdhā idam nirujjhatī ti.”
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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