Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

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Eko Care
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:32 pm It is a peculiar thing when people bring up the Buddha being critical, using that as a justification for themselves to be so. It’s peculiar, to me, as it suggests the person thinks they are comparable to a fully awakened Buddha when, no doubt, they are just a worldly person still fumbling in the dark.
Ha ha, it is being strongly critical about the people who bring up the Buddha being critical.
It is caught up with the same guilt.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:32 pm So, for me I don’t see any issue in talking to people with other views.
How could it not be another grasped view?
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Gwi II
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Gwi II »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:40 pm In ancient times monks and nuns of different traditions would live together in the same monastery. Some of the more interesting and thoughtful discussions I’ve had have been with non-Theravadin Buddhists.
And the result?

Something like that is the same as we say,
"I can sleep with someone else's wife and
the husband is also with me (three people
in one bed), but DO NOTHING, just tell stories,
and just sleep together.



In the Dhammapadaṃ there is a story of a bhikkhu who
befriended with (bhikkhu) Devadatta's disciple, and then
The Buddho rebuked this association. THOSE WHOSE
WISDOM are (VERY) WEAK, WILL THINK, "Be friends with
anyone, that's okay. Why did The Buddho forbid it?"

How could The Buddho not forbid
your statement? More prohibited!!
:anjali:
Gwi: "There are only-two Sakaṽādins:
Theraṽādå&Ṽibhajjaṽādå, the rest are
nonsakaṽādins!"
Dhammapardon
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Gwi II wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:00 am Why dunt Mr. Dhammapardon tag me? 🤔
Apologies Gwi, I hesitated because it may be received as being about you if some see you tagged.
The quote is a good one for context to the question. It was not my intention to deny you recognition.
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 2:36 am Not associating with fools is a good idea. But there are foolish Theravadins and wise non-theravadins. Keep the company of good people with wholesome habits. As long as they arent in your face about thier non-theravadin religious beliefs theres very little risk of you adopting thier ideas.
Clear, straightforward. :anjali:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Radix
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Radix »

Dhammapardon wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:57 amAs someone striving for sotapanna-hood in this very life while still living in the city and having a job and holding on to some family obligations, and having a life-long difficulty building lasting relationships with others, I have made some loose friendships among people of Christianity, Islam, Zen, Mahayana, Atheist, Hindu, Agnostic,... On occasion I'm invited to participate more fully with these friends and their respective groups but am hesitant for various reasons. I would like to go to Church with a friend and participate in their group but don't really have that faith even though I think some in-person community might be good for me.

Am I risking something by involving myself with that group and building deeper relationships with them?
Yes, you're risking your focus on your own goals.

Do those people like you for you, or are they ever so subtly trying to convert you to their religion? Mind you, you are there literally in a one vs. all situation.

Of course, it's also possible to associate with others in some kind of religious/spiritual context even when those other people belong to different religions/spiritualities than oneself. But for this, one needs to be quite superficial about one's own and/or others' religion/spirituality.

Am I leaning into an unhealthy desire for building relationships? I can sense a sort of self-made yearning but can't see it clearly enough.
I think that rather than interacting with others based on religious/spiritual interests, it might be better to focus on practical things that are not religiously/spiritually specific. Gardening, mountainhiking, sports, ...
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Radix wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 3:35 pm Yes, you're risking your focus on your own goals.

Do those people like you for you, or are they ever so subtly trying to convert you to their religion? Mind you, you are there literally in a one vs. all situation.
It's a good observation. I think once I was able to look past the murkiness of my desire-driven intentions, this is what came up next. It's certainly a detour from the goal but uncertain of potential benefits or hinderances as a result of going that route. I don't know them well enough to determine too much about them. I don't get the immediate sense they care much at all about pushing their beliefs but more about living virtuously.
Of course, it's also possible to associate with others in some kind of religious/spiritual context even when those other people belong to different religions/spiritualities than oneself. But for this, one needs to be quite superficial about one's own and/or others' religion/spirituality.
I'm not sure I'd go with superficial. Maybe honest and open instead. It kind of reminds me of the confusingness of a first date. You want to present the appealing side of you but you have baggage too and while it isn't something planned on being hidden or glossed over, of all the things to share on that first meeting, is the baggage the first to bring up?
I think that rather than interacting with others based on religious/spiritual interests, it might be better to focus on practical things that are not religiously/spiritually specific. Gardening, mountainhiking, sports, ...
It wasn't my intention to make the focus on interacting with others based on religion. Probably due to the poorly framed question. I think more accurately the question is about my concern for my own still shaky progress in this practice being muddled through making some in-person new friends.

The answer's more clear to me now, albeit a bit nuanced depending on individual circumstances. I think from what I've read, don't associate with fools, associate with the wise. Be weary of my own stability in my practice and what fuels my intentions. And if I can't determine those things for myself, best to avoid distractions until I can.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 9:03 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:32 pm It is a peculiar thing when people bring up the Buddha being critical, using that as a justification for themselves to be so. It’s peculiar, to me, as it suggests the person thinks they are comparable to a fully awakened Buddha when, no doubt, they are just a worldly person still fumbling in the dark.
Ha ha, it is being strongly critical about the people who bring up the Buddha being critical.
It is caught up with the same guilt.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:32 pm So, for me I don’t see any issue in talking to people with other views.
How could it not be another grasped view?
I didn't say we can't be critical. That is a view, yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Eko Care
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Eko Care »

Gwi II wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 9:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:40 pm In ancient times monks and nuns of different traditions would live together in the same monastery. Some of the more interesting and thoughtful discussions I’ve had have been with non-Theravadin Buddhists.
And the result?

Something like that is the same as we say,
"I can sleep with someone else's wife and
the husband is also with me (three people
in one bed), but DO NOTHING, just tell stories,
and just sleep together.

In the Dhammapadaṃ there is a story of a bhikkhu who
befriended with (bhikkhu) Devadatta's disciple, and then
The Buddho rebuked this association. THOSE WHOSE
WISDOM are (VERY) WEAK, WILL THINK, "Be friends with
anyone, that's okay. Why did The Buddho forbid it?"

How could The Buddho not forbid
your statement? More prohibited!!
:anjali:
I didn't notice the mentioned justification to have discussions with nuns, earlier.
Surely, it would be very interisting experience for the unorthodox monks.

The deviation from the obvious truths is one of the indicator of radical heterodoxy.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:53 pm
The deviation from the obvious truths is one of the indicator of radical heterodoxy.
You don’t know what the truth is yet.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Eko Care
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Eko Care »

People who have lax opinions about monks' sexual matters, are in no way qualified for Buddhism.
Not for any classical religion as well.
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Aloka
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Aloka »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:49 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:32 pmIt is a peculiar thing when people bring up the Buddha being critical, using that as a justification for themselves to be so. It’s peculiar, to me, as it suggests the person thinks they are comparable to a fully awakened Buddha when, no doubt, they are just a worldly person still fumbling in the dark.
:goodpost:
Mike
:goodpost:

:anjali:
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Radix
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Radix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:56 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:53 pm
The deviation from the obvious truths is one of the indicator of radical heterodoxy.
You don’t know what the truth is yet.
How can you possibly know this??
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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confusedlayman
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by confusedlayman »

people with wrong view are stupid and surely reborn as common animal.. even in human body, they behave like animal... taking thoughts to be real and beleiving perception, they take action that hurts others
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Aloka
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Aloka »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 7:04 pm people with wrong view are stupid and surely reborn as common animal.. even in human body, they behave like animal... taking thoughts to be real and beleiving perception, they take action that hurts others
Its unlikely that anyone is completely perfect in the modern world, so we need to work on our own misperceptions.

" A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is called a fool indeed." (Dhammapada v63)
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Dhammapardon wrote: "Am I risking something by involving myself with that group and building deeper relationships with them?
Am I leaning into an unhealthy desire for building relationships? I can sense a sort of self-made yearning but can't see it clearly enough." :coffee:

All desire leads only to attachment. Best to leave "desire" as a topic of contemplation and stick with The Noble Eight Fold Path. :buddha2:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Association with non-Theravadins is hindersome?

Post by Goofaholix »

Some religious groups discourage their followers from associating outside of their group, this is about control and cult-like behaviour,

We don't need to do that.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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