Why humans are stuck in duality?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:46 am
SarathW wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:45 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:43 am

Release from Samsara = Nibbāna
So Nibbana is another extreme?
The dualities mentioned above are not extremes.

What Buddha mentioned "extremes" here is of Sassataditthi and Ucchedaditthi (in term of View); then kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo and attakilamathānuyogo (in term of practice).
I think they all are dualities.
Perhaps the following discussion on Majja Sutta may be some help.

viewtopic.php?t=45180&hilit=majja+sutta
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by Bundokji »

I do not think humans are stuck in duality from a Buddhist perspective, as dualities are taught as a regularity of nature (dhamma niyama). Orderliness or regularities are not problematic per se. For example, the universal pattern " whatever is subject to arising is subject to ceasing" does not necessarily translate into stress, as it is described as "liberating" in the case of an ariya.

Instead, the mark of being a human is not duality considering that dualities are applicable to the nine abodes of sentient beings as per AN 9.24. The mark of humanity is this:
There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the underworld. This is the first abode of sentient beings.
This diversity in perception and body makes the resolution of any conflicts to be attributed to dualities, and the urge into dissolving them into one (Maha-Brahama/Baka). In the corporeal body of the individual human, it manifests as some kind of symmetry unified into one bag of skin (two merged into one), and under the skin, things are not as symmetrical as they appear to be (bodily organs), so the world of appearances (which are assumed to be deceptive) and the world beyond becomes another regularity for the human - hence the quality of the truth under such conditions is non-divisible (either/ or), and it can be either exoteric (the order of two/one/two/one ad infinitum) or esoteric (the chaos that lies beneath or beyond/the jungle where monks dwell).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

SarathW wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:41 am The question is why humans are naturally inclined to two extremes?
Extremes are simple and easy. The middle way is complex and difficult.

When you live by extremes, your mind always knows which way you want to go in a situation. It's led by delusion. If you live by the middle way, you must be mindful in each moment to notice where the middle point lies for you.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

There comes a time when, Vāseṭṭha, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos contracts. Here begins the story of origins. The Buddha begins his creation myth with the end of the world. For this passage, compare DN 1:2.2.1.As the cosmos contracts, sentient beings are mostly headed for the realm of streaming radiance. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos expands. As the cosmos expands, sentient beings mostly pass away from that host of radiant deities and come back to this realm. In the Brahmajālasutta, beings pass from one Brahmā realm to another, but when they come to this world it is as a human. Here we have a different perspective, where beings apparently still like the Brahmā gods exist in the physical realm.Here they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time. The role of food is critical throughout this narrative. Food is a fundamental sustenance on which all creatures must rely, and the nature of the food reflects the type of creature that eats it. Taittirīya Upaniṣad 2.5.1 says the highest form of self is made of bliss (ātmā ānandamaya).

2. The Earth’s Nectar Appears

But the single mass of water at that time was utterly dark. Creation myths often begin with a dark, formless world of water, and describe the emergence of divisions and structures of the world. They do not differentiate the physical, biological, ecological, or social, as such distinctions came later.The moon and sun were not found, nor were stars and constellations, day and night, months and fortnights, years and seasons, or male and female. Beings were simply known as ‘beings’. Throughout, the discourse has a special interest in tracing the origins of language and how different usages came about. Here the term “beings” is presented as a natural choice: they are “beings” because they are alive. Later, words are selected to convey a certain political or moral stance.After a very long period had passed, the earth’s nectar curdled in the water. The reading and sense of samatani is obscure. I think it is connected with santānaka in the next line, in the sense of “networks” or tendrils appearing in the water as it curdles. The Sanskrit at SF 277 and Mūlasarvāstvāda Vinaya 17 has saṁmūrcchitaḥ saṁtanoti (“curdled tendrils”). | Rasapathavī (“earth’s nectar”) is also obscure. We would expect pathavīrasa (cp. phalarasa “fruit juice”, etc.), which is indeed found at SN 5.9:5.3 in the sense “nutriments in soil”. Since this reading also appears here in the Sanskrit sources, I assume it is the correct sense.It appeared just like the curd on top of hot milk-rice as it cools. It was beautiful, fragrant, and delicious, like ghee or butter. And it was as sweet as pure dwarf-bee honey. Khuddā (literally “small one”) is said to be a species of small bee, also known in Sanskrit as kṣudrā. The “dwarf bee” (apis florea) fits the bill, as it is a small wild honeybee found in India.Now, one of those beings was reckless. Thinking, ‘Oh my, what might this be?’ they tasted the earth’s nectar with their finger. Ghee and honey were among the finest offerings to the gods. The soma was often described as “honeyed”. Our text is suggesting that the Vedic sacrifices led to the corruption of divinity.They enjoyed it, and craving was born in them. For acchadesi read assādesi (“enjoyed”) after Mu Kd 17’s āsvādayati. The commentary explains acchadesi as “becomes suffused”, so if it is a misreading it is an old one.And other beings, following that being’s example, tasted the earth’s nectar with their fingers. They too enjoyed it, and craving was born in

3. The Moon and Sun Appear

Then those beings started to eat the earth’s nectar, breaking it into lumps. But when they did this their luminosity vanished. And with the vanishing of their luminosity the moon and sun appeared, stars and constellations appeared, days and nights were distinguished, and so were months and fortnights, and years and seasons. So far had the world evolved once more.

Then those beings eating the earth’s nectar, with that as their food and nourishment, remained for a very long time. But so long as they ate that earth’s nectar, their bodies became more solid and they diverged in appearance; some beautiful, some ugly. And the beautiful beings looked down on the ugly ones: At DN 26:17.2 it is the ugly ones who are at fault for jealousy.‘We’re more beautiful, they’re the ugly ones!’ And the vanity of the beautiful ones made the earth’s nectar vanish. They gathered together and bemoaned, ‘Oh, what a taste! Oh, what a taste!’ And even today when people get something tasty they say: ‘Oh, what a taste! Oh, what a taste!’ They’re just remembering an ancient primordial saying, but they don’t understand what it means. This is another veiled critique of the Vedic tradition. In DN 13:13.1 the Buddha told Vāseṭṭha and Bhāradvāja the Vedas were recited by people who did not understand them. This problem was well understood within the tradition of the Brāhmaṇas and Upaniṣads, which constantly emphasized that they are effective for “one who knows this” (ya evam veda).
...
7. Gender Appears

But so long as they ate that ripe untilled rice, their bodies became more solid and they diverged in appearance. And female characteristics appeared on women, while male characteristics appeared on men. The commentary to Bu Pj 1:10.6.1 explains “male characteristics” as “beard and whiskers, etc.” (massudāṭhikādi), so this is not just genitals but also secondary sex characteristics.Women spent too much time gazing at men, and men at women. They became lustful, and their bodies burned with fever. Due to this fever they had sex with each other.

The Origin of the World
Aggaññasutta
DN 27
https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato ... ript=latin
:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
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equilibrium
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by equilibrium »

SarathW wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:41 am Why humans are stuck in duality?
Delusion / ignorance ….. not seeing and knowing the 4NT, the illusion itself.
It appears Buddha's main teaching is to break these two extremes.
No ….. to transcend them.
The question is why humans are naturally inclined to two extremes?
All part of existence ….. bounded within.
What is the link between extremes and Nibbana?
Samsara (trapped, conditioned) v Nibbana (freedom, unconditioned) ….. delusion / ignorance v unborn.
How do I know that I am in an extreme?
There are always someone more extreme than you are, either good or bad ….. not an issue here.
How do I escape from the extreme?
To not exist / born ….. by Direct knowledge of 4NT.
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mjaviem
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:07 am Measuring or comparing.

To be rich, there have to be poor, tall-short, dead-alive, black-white, good-evil, us-them, inside-outside,
heaven-hell, samsara-nibbana...

All these are concepts that we put over our experiences of the world to make sense of an indescribable reality.
Notice that most of these concepts relate to physical things, especially with regard to our bodies.

Without attachment to the body, rich/poor, healthy/sick, dead/alive, old/young, black/white, male/female has no relevance.
In other words, aging, sickness, and death don't apply. Unwholesome speech and deeds also don't apply.
This is such a :goodpost:
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
justindesilva
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by justindesilva »

Ontheway wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:43 am
SarathW wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:43 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:40 am While in the world, the Buddha made it clear that there is duality. Male and female, mundane and supramundane, non-enlightened and enlightened, conventional and ultimate, trapped in Samsara and release from Samsara, etc.
Where is Nibbana fitting here?
Release from Samsara = Nibbāna
From the view point of a Russian scientist w
who studied biosphere in early 1900s , the rreason why beings on earth exist is to manifest energy by recycling chemicals as nitrogen , oxygen , carbon as gasses along with formation of salts as nitrates , carbonates. He suggests that for this reason , the biosphere with beings with life energy remain on the earth .
The death and birth of beings is a part of this
process . Lord budda on the other hand identified birth and death of beings as suffering where suffering could be identified as manifestation of energy suggedted by the
Russian scientist . Suffering in buddhism is
birth , death, sicknesas etc . The reason for
this suffering we can identify as being part og manifestation of energy . Lord budda went further to explain these reactions or manifestations with paticca samuppada addiing life enrrgy snd citta .The reason to be engrossed in paticca samuppada is by getting trapped by desire and the way to escape from reactions is cessation of desire .
Anatta lakkana sutta explain that we are caught up in a cosmic reaction beyond control where the part caught up in reactions are energies as apo tejo vayo patavi controlled by senses
Phena sutta explains the vanity of energies we
beings are involved in. Duality arises when br
beings do not understand that energy is not real . We have created a reality with concepts and the middle path to esacape from concepts is arya. ashtanga magga ..
I now stop here .
acessoaoinsight
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by acessoaoinsight »

Why humans are stuck in duality?

The duality in our life is a very strange phenomenon.
black-white, male-female, good-bad, day-night, loss-gain, long-short, high-low, existence-nonexistence and minimalist living-luxury living is naming a few.
It appears Buddha's main teaching is to break these two extremes.
Book: Seeing with the Eye of Dhamma: The Comprehensive Teaching of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

"All of Buddhism Dhamma themes can be expressed in just three stages: pristine mind, mind with kilesas, and mind without kilesas.

The first stage, pristine mind, is just a natural element, without right or wrong, wihout good or bad. Is mind without a self, before notions of "me" and "mine", before kilesas have taken over. This is mind before birth.

The second stage it's a natural process which develops after birth. With the full functioning of the six senses, sensations (vedanas) can be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Pleasant or unpleasant sensations lead to greed or aversion, gradually driving the mind to become deluded with feelings of self: "me" and "mine". Mind falls into clinging to self because it is taken over by ignorance. Ignorance is not knowing that everything is transient, distressed, and without a fixed, stable essence (anicca, dukkha, anatta).

But the sense of self can be avoided in life. To let go of the sense of self - "me" and "mine" - is a challenging process. The sense of self becomes so deeply entrenched that it's impossible to dislodge before arahantship is realized.

In the third stage, mind turns around, opens its eyes, knows dukkha, and understands the punishment within samsara. And so trains itself and cultivates Dhamma within until it releases from the kilesas and escapes samsara, realizing nibbana, free from all its former problems.

These three stages represent the whole story of Buddhism concisely: pristine mind then foolish mind and then liberated mind. If you thoroughly understand these stages, you have understood all of Buddhism."

Note:
kilesas:
Very strong and painful when they arise. Contact/attachment towards external objects are the causes for kilesas to arise. Many, many kinds of kilesas summarized in 3 groups: lust or greed - wanting/craving; hate, anger - pushing things away, trying to get rid of things; confusion - indecision about things.
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Radix
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by Radix »

SarathW wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:41 am Why humans are stuck in duality?
I think it's primarily about control.
I would't call it "stuck" in duality, but, rather, preferring duality. To think in black and white terms, to set the number of options and to define them: these are expressions of the will to control. If anything, humans want control. And how better to achieve a sense of it than by defining the bare minimum (ie. 2) of options that get to be regarded as "the only 2 realistic ones".
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
SarathW
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by SarathW »

Radix wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:37 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:41 am Why humans are stuck in duality?
I think it's primarily about control.
I would't call it "stuck" in duality, but, rather, preferring duality. To think in black and white terms, to set the number of options and to define them: these are expressions of the will to control. If anything, humans want control. And how better to achieve a sense of it than by defining the bare minimum (ie. 2) of options that get to be regarded as "the only 2 realistic ones".
Perhaps this is due to the human tendency to clinging to views.
Clinging to views could be a protection mechanism.
Sort of a group mentality.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by pegembara »

acessoaoinsight wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:12 pm These three stages represent the whole story of Buddhism concisely: pristine mind then foolish mind and then liberated mind. If you thoroughly understand these stages, you have understood all of Buddhism."
It sounds a bit like the allegorical fall from the Garden of Eden and the beginning of suffering from birth, sickness, and death and the journey to return to Eden. The forbidden tree of 'knowledge' is more like the tree of delusion/ignorance. Having eaten the fruit they gained 'awareness of good and evil' which is a duality. The loss of 'innocence' is the cause of greed, hatred, and delusion.
The story behind Adam and Eve is that they were the first human couple created by God and placed in the Garden of Eden. They were allowed to eat from any tree in the garden except for the "tree of knowledge" of good and evil. However, they were tempted by a serpent to eat from the forbidden tree, and as a result, they gained the awareness of good and evil, but also lost their innocence and harmony with God. They were then banished from the garden and had to face the hardships of life.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:56 am
acessoaoinsight wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:12 pm These three stages represent the whole story of Buddhism concisely: pristine mind then foolish mind and then liberated mind. If you thoroughly understand these stages, you have understood all of Buddhism."
It sounds a bit like the allegorical fall from the Garden of Eden and the beginning of suffering from birth, sickness, and death and the journey to return to Eden. The forbidden tree of 'knowledge' is more like the tree of delusion/ignorance. Having eaten the fruit they gained 'awareness of good and evil' which is a duality. The loss of 'innocence' is the cause of greed, hatred, and delusion.
The story behind Adam and Eve is that they were the first human couple created by God and placed in the Garden of Eden. They were allowed to eat from any tree in the garden except for the "tree of knowledge" of good and evil. However, they were tempted by a serpent to eat from the forbidden tree, and as a result, they gained the awareness of good and evil, but also lost their innocence and harmony with God. They were then banished from the garden and had to face the hardships of life.
If this what Buddhadasa teaches it is not Buddhism.
Perhaps he is teaching Christianity.
I am not a fan of Buddhadasa and I have not read his teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:45 am
pegembara wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:56 am
acessoaoinsight wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:12 pm These three stages represent the whole story of Buddhism concisely: pristine mind then foolish mind and then liberated mind. If you thoroughly understand these stages, you have understood all of Buddhism."
It sounds a bit like the allegorical fall from the Garden of Eden and the beginning of suffering from birth, sickness, and death and the journey to return to Eden. The forbidden tree of 'knowledge' is more like the tree of delusion/ignorance. Having eaten the fruit they gained 'awareness of good and evil' which is a duality. The loss of 'innocence' is the cause of greed, hatred, and delusion.
The story behind Adam and Eve is that they were the first human couple created by God and placed in the Garden of Eden. They were allowed to eat from any tree in the garden except for the "tree of knowledge" of good and evil. However, they were tempted by a serpent to eat from the forbidden tree, and as a result, they gained the awareness of good and evil, but also lost their innocence and harmony with God. They were then banished from the garden and had to face the hardships of life.
If this what Buddhadasa teaches it is not Buddhism.
Perhaps he is teaching Christianity.
I am not a fan of Buddhadasa and I have not read his teaching.
I have read Buddhadasa and quite enjoy them -don't know if they are his actual thoughts or a translation by his students.
As far as I know, he doesn't teach Christianity in any form. :strawman:

Some quotes-

What is the world full of? It is full of things that arise, persist, and cease. Grasp and cling to them, and they produce suffering. Don't grasp and cling to them, and they do not produce suffering.

True happiness consists in eliminating the false idea of 'I'.

Happiness is when there is no hunger or want at all, when we're completely free of all hunger, desire, and want.

Hell was OK, until some wise guy went to heaven and came back

Those who read books cannot understand the teachings and, what's more, may even go astray. But those who try to observe the things going on in the mind, and always take that which is true in their own minds as their standard, never get muddled. They are able to comprehend suffering, and ultimately will understand Dharma. Then, they will understand the books they read.

The practice is to make the non-arising of grasping and clinging absolute, final, and eternally void, so that no grasping and clinging can ever return. Just that is enough. There is nothing else to do.

https://www.azquotes.com/author/25755-Buddhadasa
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by SarathW »

Hell was OK, until some wise guy went to heaven and came back
:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mjaviem
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Re: Why humans are stuck in duality?

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:21 am ... don't know if they are his actual thoughts or a translation by his students.
...
Yes, I came to think that most probable the translations are not totally faithful to what he actually expressed sometimes (which is understandable). I can't remember what was that which I didn't agree about its Santikharo bhikkhu's interpretation of something. I think it was "good and bad" which I bet ajhan Buddhadasa meant "good and bad for me" or similar and not in the way of wholesome and unwholesome, etc.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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