At least what I've pointed out about MN 111, MN 125, MN 119 should make you wonder how Vism. and suttas are talking about the same jhāna, if that's still your view.
frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 3:12 pmLet's back up and look at the straightforward case first.robertk wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 5:11 pm ...
Dear Frank
So in the section of the Satipatthana sutta where it mentions speaking possibly it could be referring to a highly skilled yogi who makes body duplicates while in 4th jhana, and it is one of the duplicates who is speaking?
What about the other actions mentioned below, like going forwards.. looking straight on or looking away.
Could they be done while in first jhana, without the need for a duplicate?And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension [,,] in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension
going by MN 125, a monk is doing satipatthana sitting down, eyes closed, with occasional verbal linguistic thoughts of "may all beings be happy."
doing that, monk experiences mental joy (pīti), physical pleasure felt with the body (sukha),
singular focus (ekaggata and samādhi) on thoughts of skillful Dharma not are not kāma-vitakka, etc.
He's doing satipatthana as first jhāna concurrently according to MN 125.
Are we agreed so far, what the Buddha's words are saying in the suttas about jhāna is different than Vism.?