Hi SDC,
SDC wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 pm
mikenz66 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 12:23 am
SDC wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 10:29 pmSomeone who can’t be bothered to build that virtue has no access to that joy or clarity, so whatever they do during a formal sitting is unrelated to the direction of samadhi. I’m sure they relax and feel good, but for what purpose? To be more efficient at work? Be happier with life? What the heck does that have to do with right view???
Well, of course, I agree, that would not be liberating. I didn't suggest such an approach in my post.
Mike
I figured that. Just trying to make sure we’re understanding each other. Sorry if I’m about to beat a dead horse…
To your point, whatever the mind is established upon during a sitting practice may not be practically helpful if it doesn’t stem from a lifestyle that includes the precepts. So, while someone - as you said - may develop “enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to”, they would only be able to see to the extent that the current mode of being allows - to the extent that unwholesome has been relinquished, which comes from day to day effort in virtue and restraint. Craving cannot emerge as a practical phenomena if there isn’t an accumulation of experience of having endured it
without acting. That is literally the space where things can be discerned, but will only be there on account of restraint. If the lifestyle is one of arbitrary obedience to craving, there is no space to see it coming from a direction of independence, which is none other than trying to clean polluted water downstream from the source. Purification of behavior removes the source of impurity, and only after that will there be enough clarity for discernment.
Sure, a person can “formally sit” and calmly contemplate their reasons for practicing and reflect why it is in their best interest, and that can be extremely productive, but that is purely an intellectual consideration, which would stand as an intention for further effort. But such efforts are not considered a meditation in the colloquial sense of the word, which, for our purposes here, are referring to a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity.
Hmm, yes, we are going in circles here. Virtue is crucial , samadhi is crucial, insight it crucial.
As you say:
"Purification of behavior removes the source of impurity, and only after that will there be enough clarity for discernment."
In my experience:
"Developing some measure of samadhi (calm, etc) gives enough clarity to discern the behaviour that needs to be removed that that leads to a bit more discernment".
The disagreement appears to revolve around opinions over whether this is a linear or non-linear process. I presume you favour is a linear reading of texts such as MN27
https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/sujato ... ript=latin
[Development of virtue]
When they have this entire spectrum of noble ethics, they experience a blameless happiness inside themselves.
And only then move on to
When they see a sight with their eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details.
and then mindfulness, samadhi, liberating insight.
However, we have other suttas that suggest different orderings of development. For example AN4.94
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world.
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ.
What four?
Katame cattāro?
One person has internal serenity of heart, but not the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa, na lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
One person has the higher wisdom of discernment of principles, but not internal serenity of heart.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa.
One person has neither internal serenity of heart, nor the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa na ca lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
One person has both internal serenity of heart, and the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī ceva hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa lābhī ca adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
This sutta continues with the instruction to ask someone how to develop what is lacking:
As for the person who has serenity but not discernment: they should approach someone who has discernment and ask:
‘Reverend, how should conditions be seen?
How should they be comprehended?
How should they be discerned?’
That person would answer from their own experience:
...
Based on this comment, you may be misinterpreting what I am talking about:
SDC wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 pm
Sure, a person can “formally sit” and calmly contemplate their reasons for practicing and reflect why it is in their best interest, and that can be extremely productive, but that is purely an intellectual consideration, which would stand as an intention for further effort. But such efforts are not considered a meditation in the colloquial sense of the word, which, for our purposes here, are referring to a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity.
I am not talking about either intellectual analysis, or "a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity". I'm talking about clearly seeing those tendencies.
Isn't clearly seeing the issues actually in line with your favoured approach?
Mike