Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

justpractice wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:04 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:19 pm The way I see it, the usefulness of formal meditation practice is that it gives the possibility of developing enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to. It may be possible to develop that clarity without formal practice, but that's not my experience. With a little of thatt clarity, it becomes possible to make some real changes in ones life. However, it is a slow and somewhat circular process.
Doing X to get Y is the sensual approach. One should be wary of any calm and clarity that results from assuming that framework, even if (or maybe especially if) it is something as lofty as a formal meditation practice. That greater perspective, that wariness of results dependent on particular actions, is the direction of renunciation, the foundation of which can only be virtue and restraint.
Well, of course. Who is denying the importance of virtue and restraint, or the blind alleys that can occur with various practices? This is clearly not a simple path. I understand from dipping into his talks that Ven N Nanamoli talks about this sensual approach idea a lot. Of course, it's a useful warning, and one of the key things I learned from practice and from other teachers.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by justpractice »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:29 pm Well, of course. Who is denying the importance of virtue and restraint, or the blind alleys that can occur with various practices?
mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:19 pm The way I see it, the usefulness of formal meditation practice is that it gives the possibility of developing enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to. It may be possible to develop that clarity without formal practice, but that's not my experience.
I take the above statement to be placing formal meditation on a level of greater importance than the development of virtue and restraint, which is what my response was addressing. Apologies if I read it wrong, but I'm not sure what else is being implied there.
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:29 pm I understand from dipping into his talks that Ven N Nanamoli talks about this sensual approach idea a lot.
Indeed, which aligns with all the warnings and perils of sensuality repeatedly found throughout the suttas.
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:29 pm Of course, it's a useful warning, and one of the key things I learned from practice and from other teachers.
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"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:24 pm
sunnat wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:34 am There is no ‘Goenka method’. Goenkaji taught the concentration (anapana) and insight (vipassana) as taught by his teacher U Ba Khin as taught by his teacher etc to Ledi Sayadaw and so on.

It is a long path, stretching through many lifetimes of accumulated merits. It is why someone who habitually breaks all the precepts can progress quickly. It depends on past kammas resultants coming to fruition. Where does virtue really begin? Who knows? One is only the owner of one’s kammas and resultants. For someone to awaken (re awaken) virtuous tendencies may mean a concerted mental effort, for some it may mean the experience of being forgiven. Whatever it may be that awakens one to knowing remorse and shame and hence a valuing of virtues doesn’t matter. It all depends on conditions determined by past actions.
I think we may be having some terminology issues. When I say say “develop virtue” I’m referring to building a lifestyle around the precepts. Are you saying that Ledi Sayadaw did not encourage people to follow the precepts and that past action determines everything? And all they have to do is practice meditation?
SDC, I think you brought up an important point about building a lifestyle. I see this lifestyle as that of sense restraint, which does not only limit to precepts. One of the reasons why I chose the Goenka style meditation as my main practice is because it's technique is basically that, that is restraining from greed, hate and delusion at the level of sensations. The formal sitting technique is congruent to this lifestyle, this value of sense restraint.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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justpractice wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:53 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:29 pm Well, of course. Who is denying the importance of virtue and restraint, or the blind alleys that can occur with various practices?
mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:19 pm The way I see it, the usefulness of formal meditation practice is that it gives the possibility of developing enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to. It may be possible to develop that clarity without formal practice, but that's not my experience.
I take the above statement to be placing formal meditation on a level of greater importance than the development of virtue and restraint, which is what my response was addressing. Apologies if I read it wrong, but I'm not sure what else is being implied there.
Virtue, restraint, calm, and insight are obviously all important. "Greater importance" do not seem a relevant label. In my experience, different people seem to develop in different ways, and the development is not linear. Calm helps to discern how virtue needs to be developed, and vice versa. Others may well have different experiences, and find help from different teachers. I'm not a fan of "one true approach". The path is complex.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:23 am
SDC wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:29 pmSomeone who can’t be bothered to build that virtue has no access to that joy or clarity, so whatever they do during a formal sitting is unrelated to the direction of samadhi. I’m sure they relax and feel good, but for what purpose? To be more efficient at work? Be happier with life? What the heck does that have to do with right view??? :tongue:
Well, of course, I agree, that would not be liberating. I didn't suggest such an approach in my post.

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Mike
I figured that. Just trying to make sure we’re understanding each other. Sorry if I’m about to beat a dead horse…

To your point, whatever the mind is established upon during a sitting practice may not be practically helpful if it doesn’t stem from a lifestyle that includes the precepts. So, while someone - as you said - may develop “enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to”, they would only be able to see to the extent that the current mode of being allows - to the extent that unwholesome has been relinquished, which comes from day to day effort in virtue and restraint. Craving cannot emerge as a practical phenomena if there isn’t an accumulation of experience of having endured it without acting. That is literally the space where things can be discerned, but will only be there on account of restraint. If the lifestyle is one of arbitrary obedience to craving, there is no space to see it coming from a direction of independence, which is none other than trying to clean polluted water downstream from the source. Purification of behavior removes the source of impurity, and only after that will there be enough clarity for discernment.

Sure, a person can “formally sit” and calmly contemplate their reasons for practicing and reflect why it is in their best interest, and that can be extremely productive, but that is purely an intellectual consideration, which would stand as an intention for further effort. But such efforts are not considered a meditation in the colloquial sense of the word, which, for our purposes here, are referring to a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:35 pm Virtue, restraint, calm, and insight are obviously all important. "Greater importance" do not seem a relevant label. In my experience, different people seem to develop in different ways, and the development is not linear. Calm helps to discern how virtue needs to be developed, and vice versa. Others may well have different experiences, and find help from different teachers. I'm not a fan of "one true approach". The path is complex.
Right, and I'm saying there is no (relevant) calm without virtue, no (relevant) insight without restraint. Within that confinement, I agree that there are various aspects of the practice that can be developed, but all of them would be based on that same fundamental direction. Personally, I'm a fan of the Buddha's "one true approach" to ending suffering.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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Hi SDC,
SDC wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:23 am
SDC wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:29 pmSomeone who can’t be bothered to build that virtue has no access to that joy or clarity, so whatever they do during a formal sitting is unrelated to the direction of samadhi. I’m sure they relax and feel good, but for what purpose? To be more efficient at work? Be happier with life? What the heck does that have to do with right view??? :tongue:
Well, of course, I agree, that would not be liberating. I didn't suggest such an approach in my post.

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Mike
I figured that. Just trying to make sure we’re understanding each other. Sorry if I’m about to beat a dead horse…

To your point, whatever the mind is established upon during a sitting practice may not be practically helpful if it doesn’t stem from a lifestyle that includes the precepts. So, while someone - as you said - may develop “enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to”, they would only be able to see to the extent that the current mode of being allows - to the extent that unwholesome has been relinquished, which comes from day to day effort in virtue and restraint. Craving cannot emerge as a practical phenomena if there isn’t an accumulation of experience of having endured it without acting. That is literally the space where things can be discerned, but will only be there on account of restraint. If the lifestyle is one of arbitrary obedience to craving, there is no space to see it coming from a direction of independence, which is none other than trying to clean polluted water downstream from the source. Purification of behavior removes the source of impurity, and only after that will there be enough clarity for discernment.

Sure, a person can “formally sit” and calmly contemplate their reasons for practicing and reflect why it is in their best interest, and that can be extremely productive, but that is purely an intellectual consideration, which would stand as an intention for further effort. But such efforts are not considered a meditation in the colloquial sense of the word, which, for our purposes here, are referring to a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity.
Hmm, yes, we are going in circles here. Virtue is crucial , samadhi is crucial, insight it crucial.
As you say:
"Purification of behavior removes the source of impurity, and only after that will there be enough clarity for discernment."
In my experience:
"Developing some measure of samadhi (calm, etc) gives enough clarity to discern the behaviour that needs to be removed that that leads to a bit more discernment".

The disagreement appears to revolve around opinions over whether this is a linear or non-linear process. I presume you favour is a linear reading of texts such as MN27 https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/sujato ... ript=latin
[Development of virtue]
When they have this entire spectrum of noble ethics, they experience a blameless happiness inside themselves.
And only then move on to
When they see a sight with their eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details.
and then mindfulness, samadhi, liberating insight.

However, we have other suttas that suggest different orderings of development. For example AN4.94
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world.
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ.
What four?
Katame cattāro?

One person has internal serenity of heart, but not the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa, na lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
One person has the higher wisdom of discernment of principles, but not internal serenity of heart.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa.
One person has neither internal serenity of heart, nor the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa na ca lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
One person has both internal serenity of heart, and the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī ceva hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa lābhī ca adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
This sutta continues with the instruction to ask someone how to develop what is lacking:
As for the person who has serenity but not discernment: they should approach someone who has discernment and ask:
‘Reverend, how should conditions be seen?
How should they be comprehended?
How should they be discerned?’
That person would answer from their own experience:
...
Based on this comment, you may be misinterpreting what I am talking about:
SDC wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 pm Sure, a person can “formally sit” and calmly contemplate their reasons for practicing and reflect why it is in their best interest, and that can be extremely productive, but that is purely an intellectual consideration, which would stand as an intention for further effort. But such efforts are not considered a meditation in the colloquial sense of the word, which, for our purposes here, are referring to a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity.
I am not talking about either intellectual analysis, or "a technique of purifying tendencies through an attitude of equanimity". I'm talking about clearly seeing those tendencies.

Isn't clearly seeing the issues actually in line with your favoured approach?

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

justpractice wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:37 am I'm a fan of the Buddha's "one true approach" to ending suffering.
Obviously we are all fans of the Buddha's approach. But the Buddha taught different people according to their circumstances and where they were their development.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:22 pm Isn't clearly seeing the issues actually in line with your favoured approach?
Sure, but there is no clarity without building a lifestyle that inclines away from unwholesome. Someone with “internal serenity” is well-developed in this respect:
AN 11.3 wrote:An ethical person, who has fulfilled ethics, has fulfilled a vital condition for not having regrets. When there are no regrets, one who has no regrets has fulfilled a vital condition for joy. When there is joy, one who has fulfilled joy has fulfilled a vital condition for rapture. When there is rapture, one who has fulfilled rapture has fulfilled a vital condition for tranquility. When there is tranquility, one who has fulfilled tranquility has fulfilled a vital condition for bliss. When there is bliss, one who has fulfilled bliss has fulfilled a vital condition for right immersion.
So, whatever measure of samadhi you are referring to, which would, yes, surely provide clarity, is determined by previous effort in developing virtue and valuing that lifestyle. It isn’t something you gain just while sitting. You have it because they are literally living it. That joy, rapture, bliss etc., is always there for someone who is developing away from the unwholesome.

I have a feeling we are talking past one another on account of my interpretation of samadhi being that of something that is far more difficult for ordinary people to access. I don’t see it as something a person can just do as long as they line their thoughts up in a certain way. I see it as something that has to be in every facet of the experience for it to emerge, and that the only way to do that is to develop the experience to that point through virtue, restraint and seclusion from unwholesome. So, yes, there is a benefit to sitting quietly, which would provide an opportunity to verify the fruits of labor, but all there will be is what was developed on account of everything that was done before.

So, yes, they do compliment each other, but the insight method seems to be lending more stock to the mental side, whereas the suttas are clear that the lifestyle must come first, and only at that point would there emerge the possibility of serenity and insight being as complementary as described in AN 4.94.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi SDC,

It's really interesting to see how these different approaches, experiences, and perceptions play out in different people's practice.
SDC wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:26 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:22 pm Isn't clearly seeing the issues actually in line with your favoured approach?
Sure, but there is no clarity without building a lifestyle that inclines away from unwholesome. Someone with “internal serenity” is well-developed in this respect:
AN 11.3 wrote:An ethical person, who has fulfilled ethics, has fulfilled a vital condition for not having regrets. When there are no regrets, one who has no regrets has fulfilled a vital condition for joy. When there is joy, one who has fulfilled joy has fulfilled a vital condition for rapture. When there is rapture, one who has fulfilled rapture has fulfilled a vital condition for tranquility. When there is tranquility, one who has fulfilled tranquility has fulfilled a vital condition for bliss. When there is bliss, one who has fulfilled bliss has fulfilled a vital condition for right immersion.
So, whatever measure of samadhi you are referring to, which would, yes, surely provide clarity, is determined by previous effort in developing virtue and valuing that lifestyle. It isn’t something you gain just while sitting. You have it because they are literally living it. That joy, rapture, bliss etc., is always there for someone who is developing away from the unwholesome.
Well, as I said, for me it was a circular thing. I don't think that I would have developed various aspects of virtue without the meditation. It's interesting to hear that that the opposite is possible, and that there are a variety of ways of progressing. A simple example was that after my first retreat, and the experience of some clarity, I lost all interest in drinking alcohol. Not an intellectual decision - it was just completely clear that it was better to not drink.

I would say, though, that I only started meditation after several months of hanging out at a monastery. Helping out, chanting, etc. So I do agree that lifestyle is important.
SDC wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:26 pm I have a feeling we are talking past one another on account of my interpretation of samadhi being that of something that is far more difficult for ordinary people to access. I don’t see it as something a person can just do as long as they line their thoughts up in a certain way. I see it as something that has to be in every facet of the experience for it to emerge, and that the only way to do that is to develop the experience to that point through virtue, restraint and seclusion from unwholesome. So, yes, there is a benefit to sitting quietly, which would provide an opportunity to verify the fruits of labor, but all there will be is what was developed on account of everything that was done before.
It does seem strange to downplay the
SDC wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:26 pm So, yes, they do compliment each other, but the insight method seems to be lending more stock to the mental side, whereas the suttas are clear that the lifestyle must come first, and only at that point would there emerge the possibility of serenity and insight being as complementary as described in AN 4.94.
I'm a little puzzled about the use of the word "mental". What you describe as an approach always sounds quite analytical to me. I'm most likely misunderstanding it. As I tried to explain above with reference to drinking, I don't see progress as analytical - it's more of a felt conviction.

As I said in earlier posts, the main source of disagreement between your approach and what I'm familiar with seems to be over whether progress is purely linear. I can see how it is possible to interpret some suttas that way, but as I've explained, it's not how I would, or how I've experienced it.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:26 pm A simple example was that after my first retreat, and the experience of some clarity, I lost all interest in drinking alcohol. Not an intellectual decision - it was just completely clear that it was better to not drink.
But people have all kinds of experiences, many of them completely unrelated to Buddhism or meditation, that lead to giving up certain habits.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:26 pm As I tried to explain above with reference to drinking, I don't see progress as analytical - it's more of a felt conviction.
Wisdom should be the measure of progress on the path, not a "felt conviction." Conviction can certainly be a tool that can lead to wisdom, but wisdom would bring conviction to an end.

The Dhamma should eventually be putting the practitioner's convictions - all of them - into question, while simultaneously providing the basis to withstand that questioning. This basis is none other than the basis of virtue and restraint, without which wisdom and progress are simply dead in the water.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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justpractice wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:39 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:26 pm A simple example was that after my first retreat, and the experience of some clarity, I lost all interest in drinking alcohol. Not an intellectual decision - it was just completely clear that it was better to not drink.
But people have all kinds of experiences, many of them completely unrelated to Buddhism or meditation, that lead to giving up certain habits.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:26 pm As I tried to explain above with reference to drinking, I don't see progress as analytical - it's more of a felt conviction.
Wisdom should be the measure of progress on the path, not a "felt conviction." Conviction can certainly be a tool that can lead to wisdom, but wisdom would bring conviction to an end.

The Dhamma should eventually be putting the practitioner's convictions - all of them - into question, while simultaneously providing the basis to withstand that questioning. This basis is none other than the basis of virtue and restraint, without which wisdom and progress are simply dead in the water.
Thanks for your input. There may be a better word than "conviction". I was trying to contrast knowledge with "reasoning it out".

I doubt we'll make any more progress with this conversation. It feels to me like a continuous shifting of the goalposts and second-guessing about how others might be practising.

I do agree that everything should be questioned. That's why I was querying the various assertions on this thread that seemed quite contrary to my experience.

Let's agree that the path is about developing virtue, samadhi, and wisdom and that there are different opinions on how exactly they should be developed.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:13 pm Let's agree that the path is about developing virtue, samadhi, and wisdom and that there are different opinions on how exactly they should be developed.
Agreed! And the fact that there are so many conflicting opinions should be extremely concerning for the one determined to establish right practice. Thanks for the discussion, Mike.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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justpractice wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:39 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:13 pm Let's agree that the path is about developing virtue, samadhi, and wisdom and that there are different opinions on how exactly they should be developed.
Agreed! And the fact that there are so many conflicting opinions should be extremely concerning for the one determined to establish right practice. Thanks for the discussion, Mike.
Thanks! I actually take a more positive view of it - that there are a variety ways to approach practice (that meet some fundamental conditions). The Buddha himself tailored his exposition to his audience, so I don't expect any narrowly-defined approach to be suitable to everyone.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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justpractice wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:39 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:13 pm Let's agree that the path is about developing virtue, samadhi, and wisdom and that there are different opinions on how exactly they should be developed.
Agreed! And the fact that there are so many conflicting opinions should be extremely concerning for the one determined to establish right practice. Thanks for the discussion, Mike.
There is only one path to attain Nibbana.
That is Noble Eightfold Path to gain the right knowledge and subsequent release.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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