Reborn as a god

[whynotme]

whynotme said

The realm of deities is just the projection of the mind, like virtual reality.

Mhmm, what the scriptures taught is rather different. Those divine beings are very real and living to me.

One example:

SN 6.9

At Sāvatthi. Now on that occasion the monk Kokālika was sick, in pain, and gravely ill. Then, when the night was ending, the independent brahma Tudu, of stunning beauty, lighting the entire Jeta’s garden, went to the monk Kokālika. Having gone, he stood in the air and said to the monk Kokālika: “Place confidence in Sāriputta and Moggallāna, Kokālika. Sāriputta and Moggallāna are well behaved.”

“Who are you, friend?”

“I am the independent brahma Tudu.”

“Didn’t the Blessed One declare you to be a non-returner, friend? Then why have you come back here? See what wrong deed you did.”

Brahma Tudu:

“When a fool takes birth, he has an axe inside his mouth with which the fool cuts himself when speaking harsh words.

“He who praises a person deserving criticism, or criticises a person deserving praise, collects lots of demerit with his mouth. Because of that evil deed, he will never find happiness.

“Insignificant is the unlucky throw at dice that brings the loss of all wealth, including oneself. Worse by far is this unlucky throw of giving rise to hatred toward Liberated Ones.

“The insulter of noble ones, having done evil with speech and mind goes to hell. There he has to suffer for a hundred thousand Nirabbudas and thirty-six more and five Abbudās.”

Did u meet them? Then ask another person touch them to see if they are real.

You think all the space agencies around the world are blind?

Have you ever seen deva? Or spirits?

[whynotme]

sutta says different things. Its not a mind projection. if its mind projection, how did dieties visit buddha ? buddha was living in real world like us.

Then why none of them captured on camera?
Where do they live in the sky? Do all space agencies blind?

I guess it must be a hard work to avoid all the telescopes and space probes. For what? Or they live on dark side of the moon? Or dark side of the sun?

This problem many advanced ppl know but they didn't tell yet. The network of spiritual ppl all know it.

[santa100]

I guess it must be a hard work to avoid all the telescopes and space probes. For what? Or they live on dark side of the moon? Or dark side of the sun?

Actually for advanced sentient beings like the devas, there's no hard work at all on their part for having to make them invisible to us primitive humans. Sorry to break to you that even our most advanced telescopes and space probes are still not up to the task to capture everything out there. Or in Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson's own words:

“Claiming there is no other life in the universe is like scooping up some water, looking at the cup and claiming there are no whales in the ocean.”

[confusedlayman]

...
parinibbana is extinction of all experience

This is the definition of Nibbana.

Parinibbana is how people refer to a body full of vitality that stopped moving forever. They see such body as belonging to an Arahant and say "This Arahant has finally entered parinibbana"

pls refer to sutta for any clarification.

[Ontheway]

sutta says different things. Its not a mind projection. if its mind projection, how did dieties visit buddha ? buddha was living in real world like us.

Then why none of them captured on camera?
Where do they live in the sky? Do all space agencies blind?

I guess it must be a hard work to avoid all the telescopes and space probes. For what? Or they live on dark side of the moon? Or dark side of the sun?

This problem many advanced ppl know but they didn't tell yet. The network of spiritual ppl all know it.

This is because their realms are not in this human realm. Our naked eyes can't see them. They are belongs to group of beings that experience spontaneous birth according to their kamma.

The way you commented as if you are secular buddhist. The suttas made it clear that there are gods. We can't see them because it is due to our own inability. Science can explain many things, but can't explain spiritual experience such as Jhanas, iddhi, rebirth, spontaneous birth of beings such as gods and Nibbāna. But that doesn't mean these things don't exist. I don't see how acceptance of this concept can hinder our understanding and intellectual progress. On the contrary, denying this concept can actually hinders your understanding of Dhamma.

If you insists to affirm that there are no spontaneous beings (like Devas, Brahmas, ghosts, supannas and nagas), then you've fallen into wrong view.

From Mahācattārīsakasutta

“And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is wrong view.

Also, the post you made would be indirectly accusing Buddha as liar, since the Buddha affirmed that there are gods.

[whynotme]

Ah hah I see what you did there.

There's no way you can stop destiny. Read the thread about the verse of unsurpassed one.

You just can not change fact.

At the end of Buddhist time, someone will come unsurpassed. Mastered jhana and abilities he doesn't need persuade by the old suttas.

[whynotme]

Billions will trust the unsurpassed, not the scholars.

Even a thousand scholars don't have a small chance against unsurpassed quoting old suttas

[whynotme]

I guess it must be a hard work to avoid all the telescopes and space probes. For what? Or they live on dark side of the moon? Or dark side of the sun?

Actually for advanced sentient beings like the devas, there's no hard work at all on their part for having to make them invisible to us primitive humans. Sorry to break to you that even our most advanced telescopes and space probes are still not up to the task to capture everything out there. Or in Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson's own words:

“Claiming there is no other life in the universe is like scooping up some water, looking at the cup and claiming there are no whales in the ocean.”

I must say even your whole civillation can not understand it, understand?

It's hard to know the truth, the power of human is very small compare to spiritual, so be careful even the devas can be no help with the wrong view.

[santa100]

I must say even your whole civillation can not understand it, understand?

It's hard to know the truth, the power of human is very small compare to spiritual, so be careful even the devas can be no help with the wrong view.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. At first you seem to say that you don't believe devas are real because our advanced scientific instruments havent' detected them so far, but then you seem to say the opposite, that the devas are real and they can't help one with wrong view!

I guess it must be a hard work to avoid all the telescopes and space probes. For what? Or they live on dark side of the moon? Or dark side of the sun?

Not even sure what you meant by "dark side of the sun"?? There's only 1 sun in our solar system and it's radiating light out from its' entire surface, so even on the side opposite to our line of sight, it's still the bright side nevertheless.

[whynotme]

I must say even your whole civillation can not understand it, understand?

It's hard to know the truth, the power of human is very small compare to spiritual, so be careful even the devas can be no help with the wrong view.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. At first you seem to say that you don't believe devas are real because our advanced scientific instruments havent' detected them so far, but then you seem to say the opposite, that the devas are real and they can't help one with wrong view!

I guess it must be a hard work to avoid all the telescopes and space probes. For what? Or they live on dark side of the moon? Or dark side of the sun?

Not even sure what you meant by "dark side of the sun"?? There's only 1 sun in our solar system and it's radiating light out from its' entire surface, so even on the side opposite to our line of sight, it's still the bright side nevertheless.

It's just a joke. There's old one like this, the US get the first human to the moon, second person said then the Soviet will get the first human to the sun, first one it's not possible the sun is very hot, replied but they will come at night.

Then you should check your reading, in nowhere I said deva don't exist. But these ppl complain I said opposite the Buddha which I don't feel like the need to explain. Cos I could make a false offense like you said there's alien on Mars which you didn't, so why should I concern no matter true or false?

In case you want to get it, there's multiple levels of deva, lower ones live on earth, in forest.. They live on houses but their houses can not be seen by ordinary eye. Then what it is if not mind made?

That's why I called them all spirit, because they are immaterial. When the spirit leaves the body, they aren't material anymore. And this is the ontological concep, if these world is not material then it's clearly mind made.

So I just tried to call the spirit world exactly as it is, a projection of the mind. Because to build a house with material, like wood or steel or concrete or even gold, it must be seen or measured by instruments. If these material like gold can not be seen or measured then it's useless as gold and should not be called as gold. Then it's just an image, no matter an image of stone, wood or gold it's still an image. It's maybe not a simple 2d image but 3d image, it's can also be touched and feel but no matter how complex it's still just an image.

Because not everything can be seen is material. Like a house in the dream, where's this house, is this house real, what is it made of? Is this house made by advanced materials currently science doesn't know of? Or made by quantum something material? Follow this pseudo science path will achieve nothing. Just accept it's an image mind made and done.

The same is applied to the whole spirit world. When it's immaterial then it's exactly a state of mind, like a dream is exactly just a state of mind.

OTOH while spirits are just a state of the mind, the higher like deva or brahma can applied mind over matter control to some degree, I believe, while the lower like ghost can not.

This is another ontological concep, human also practice mind over matter control. As other said human is a ghost with shell while spirits, god or deva or brahma is ghost without shell so the root problem is still the same.

[santa100]

So I just tried to call the spirit world exactly as it is, a projection of the mind. Because to build a house with material, like wood or steel or concrete or even gold, it must be seen or measured by instruments. If these material like gold can not be seen or measured then it's useless as gold and should not be called as gold. Then it's just an image, no matter an image of stone, wood or gold it's still an image. It's maybe not a simple 2d image but 3d image, it's can also be touched and feel but no matter how complex it's still just an image.
....
This is another ontological concep, human also practice mind over matter control. As other said human is a ghost with shell while spirits, god or deva or brahma is ghost without shell so the root problem is still the same.

Again, not sure what you're trying to say here. But if the devas are just "a projection of the mind" like you've stated above, then you're contradicting the Buddha's teaching, which taught that they're concrete realm of existence just like the human or animal realms.

[whynotme]

That's just your temporary opinion. Things change with time

IMO you already got my previous message so no need further debate unless you feel needed

[Ontheway]

That's just your temporary opinion. Things change with time

IMO you already got my previous message so no need further debate unless you feel needed

haha That's not even debate. That's just your own opinion. I don't think anyone with sufficient sutta knowledge will even give importance to your opinion.

The Buddha made it clear that there are Devas. Even one of the Buddhaguna is literally "Satthā devamanussānaṁ" aka Teacher of gods and men. Hardly a subject for debate.

[whynotme]

That's just your temporary opinion. Things change with time

IMO you already got my previous message so no need further debate unless you feel needed

haha That's not even debate. That's just your own opinion. I don't think anyone with sufficient sutta knowledge will even give importance to your opinion.

The Buddha made it clear that there are Devas. Even one of the Buddhaguna is literally "Satthā devamanussānaṁ" aka Teacher of gods and men. Hardly a subject for debate.

Then ignore it, let someone who understands acknowledge it.

You don't think then I don't see any value in your opinion. Yeah enough knowledge keeps it for yourself. Reality is another matter.