Meaning of "percipient of light"

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Dhammapardon
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Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Dhammapardon »

Hello Venerables and friends,

It appears often in translation associated with abandoning sloth and drowsiness but there isn't much else said.
https://suttacentral.net/dn12/en/thanissaro?reference=none&highlight=false wrote: Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light.
Attempting to understand this phrase experientialy and making an educated guess, percipient here usually gets translated from saññī of ālokasaññī (percipient of light). Saññī and saññā probably mean something very similar? Saññā being what one does with phenomena through one of the 5 aggregates (pancakhanda).

So likely means someone notices/recognizes the brightness of their immediate surroundings. Similar to leaving a darkened office or building into a sunny day and think "Wow it's bright outside" but the noticing is not with the verbal. More like in-the-moment noticing how bright the grass-covered area you often walk by is on a particular sunny day. Dwelling percipient of the light brightening the grass nearby brings alertness/abandons sloth & drowsiness..

Metta
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SarathW
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by SarathW »

I am not sure of the exact meaning.
However, I believe it refers to a very bright mind and energetic mental state.
I also have experienced some very bright light sometimes. (this is not the light transplanting via eye lids on a bright day or under artificial light)
As it was very brief I can't comment much on that.
I like to know any member who experienced this for a very long time.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by JamesTheGiant »

I thought it means nimitta, the bright light which can appear in the mind before entering jhana.
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by SarathW »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:20 pm I thought it means nimitta, the bright light which can appear in the mind before entering jhana.
Perhaps you are correct.
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Sam Vara »

I certainly agree with the point about the nimitta, but the positioning in the list seems problematic:
Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.
It comes after the meditator abandons sloth and drowsiness, having already abandoned covetousness and ill will. Whether the list is intended to be a temporal sequence or not, we would expect the nimitta to arise after all the hindrances had been abandoned, or at least to not be associated with this particular hindrance of sloth and drowsiness. As a precursor of jhana, it should arise, if at all, with the suppression or abandoning of all the hindrances.

It might be that the arrival of the nimitta signifies the arising of piti (called "energisation" in at least one samatha tradition) which dispels the sloth and drowsiness, but I can't recall having seen a sutta explicitly states that this is so.
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Dhammapardon »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:14 pm It comes after the meditator abandons sloth and drowsiness, having already abandoned covetousness and ill will. Whether the list is intended to be a temporal sequence or not, we would expect the nimitta to arise after all the hindrances had been abandoned, or at least to not be associated with this particular hindrance of sloth and drowsiness. As a precursor of jhana, it should arise, if at all, with the suppression or abandoning of all the hindrances.
Your observation it comes after the meditator abandons slowht and drowsiness, are you referring to perception of light? I may be interpreting the quoted paragraph a little differently. Kind of like this..
Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness.
The process of abandoning sloth & drowsiness: Dwell with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. This cleanses the mind of sloth and drowsiness.

It reads like the act of dwelling with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, and percipient of light is what leads to a mind cleansed of sloth & drowsiness.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:14 pm It might be that the arrival of the nimitta signifies the arising of piti (called "energisation" in at least one samatha tradition) which dispels the sloth and drowsiness, but I can't recall having seen a sutta explicitly states that this is so.
Do you have more information on which tradition?
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Sam Vara »

Dhammapardon wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:05 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:14 pm It comes after the meditator abandons sloth and drowsiness, having already abandoned covetousness and ill will. Whether the list is intended to be a temporal sequence or not, we would expect the nimitta to arise after all the hindrances had been abandoned, or at least to not be associated with this particular hindrance of sloth and drowsiness. As a precursor of jhana, it should arise, if at all, with the suppression or abandoning of all the hindrances.
Your observation it comes after the meditator abandons slowht and drowsiness, are you referring to perception of light? I may be interpreting the quoted paragraph a little differently. Kind of like this..
Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness.
The process of abandoning sloth & drowsiness: Dwell with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. This cleanses the mind of sloth and drowsiness.

It reads like the act of dwelling with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, and percipient of light is what leads to a mind cleansed of sloth & drowsiness.

Yes, sorry, my last post was late at night and could have been clearer!

I mean that I tend to favour the idea that the light is a nimitta, but because a nimitta is a sign of jhana arising, we would expect to find it at the end of the list of hindrances being abandoned. Not attached to the particular hindrance of sloth and drowsiness. This would be the case whether we take the light to be a means of dispelling the drowsiness, or a sign of the drowsiness being dispelled. If it were definitely a nimitta, I would expect the light to lead to the mind being cleansed of all the hindrances, or to arise at the end of the process as a sign that all the hindrances have been cleared and the mind is ready for jhana.
Do you have more information on which tradition?
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:14 pm I certainly agree with the point about the nimitta, but the positioning in the list seems problematic:
Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.
It comes after the meditator abandons sloth and drowsiness, having already abandoned covetousness and ill will. Whether the list is intended to be a temporal sequence or not, we would expect the nimitta to arise after all the hindrances had been abandoned, or at least to not be associated with this particular hindrance of sloth and drowsiness. As a precursor of jhana, it should arise, if at all, with the suppression or abandoning of all the hindrances.

It might be that the arrival of the nimitta signifies the arising of piti (called "energisation" in at least one samatha tradition) which dispels the sloth and drowsiness, but I can't recall having seen a sutta explicitly states that this is so.
I’ve started to think that it might be metaphorical. When sloth and torpor are gone, one’s mind is bright and alert.
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:32 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:14 pm I certainly agree with the point about the nimitta, but the positioning in the list seems problematic:
Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.
It comes after the meditator abandons sloth and drowsiness, having already abandoned covetousness and ill will. Whether the list is intended to be a temporal sequence or not, we would expect the nimitta to arise after all the hindrances had been abandoned, or at least to not be associated with this particular hindrance of sloth and drowsiness. As a precursor of jhana, it should arise, if at all, with the suppression or abandoning of all the hindrances.

It might be that the arrival of the nimitta signifies the arising of piti (called "energisation" in at least one samatha tradition) which dispels the sloth and drowsiness, but I can't recall having seen a sutta explicitly states that this is so.
I’ve started to think that it might be metaphorical. When sloth and torpor are gone, one’s mind is bright and alert.
Agree.
But it is not metaphorical I think.
You physically see a light when you close your eyes.
Perhaps the mind free from five hindrances could be very bright like the sun.
:shrug:
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Sha Bac »

At the end of 2015 I did a chanting meditation for about 20 minutes. It was chenrezig. OM MANI PEME HUM. I went to work and everything was in a white light.

I had an old jewish friend who told me you need to see white all over. He said when he was younger he used to see white all over.
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:51 am At the end of 2015 I did a chanting meditation for about 20 minutes. It was chenrezig. OM MANI PEME HUM. I went to work and everything was in a white light.

I had an old jewish friend who told me you need to see white all over. He said when he was younger he used to see white all over.
Yes you can see this light using any Samatha meditation whether it is Buddhist, Hindu or any Abrahamic religion.
But if you misunderstood this for seen the God or something, you are in for a trouble. (more to the point you and the whole world)
:D
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by frank k »

https://lucid24.org/sted/asnd/index.html
These are all the sutta references to perception of light, all day all night, mind luminous...
(excluding the 5 hindrance short pointer that you refer to)

AN 6.29 is the best one, showing the full context.

If you have a lamp that's charged with solar panels, if you only charge it up 20-30%, it's not as bright as it is charged up to 100%.

Jhāna and perception of light works the same way.
Most people living a 'normal' worldly lifestyle, their jhāna battery is never going to be more than about 30% charged.

If you do high quality jhāna meditation everyday, I'd say 6-10 hours for at least several weeks are necessary to get to the point where you'll experience what the suttas describe of seeing super bright light, all day all night even with your eyes closed.
You don't need much sleep, maybe 1-2 hours a night, and you may just be lying there awake letting your body rest.
You see light even with your eyes closed.
The light is so bright it's like someone tore off your eye lids and shining a bright flashlight in your face.
Some people may see visions, with their eyes closed.
Some people develop this to the point of divine eye, they can see real things accurately from past, present future, in vivid color with their eyes closed, as if standing in front of the vision with eyes open.

If you develop that, THEN you can ward off drowsiness with perception of light.
Otherwise, the only way it could work is if you open your eyes.
And if you're really sleepy, then even opening your eyes wouldn't work.

But if you have your jhana battery charged up really high, then you can see bright light all day all night, some see visions, and you'll be very energetic and need little sleep.
This is what MN 127 and MN 128 is talking about, it's not about VRJ (vism. redefinitiion of jhāna and nimtta of light about the size of a dime in front of your face).

It's all about charging up the jhāna battery, using the Buddha's authentic instructions on jhāna.

Doing Vism. redefinition of jhāna, it's also possible to reach the same state (of Buddha's jhāna and perception of light), but odds are highly against you because Vism. instructions cause great mental and physical tension for most people, which either blocks Buddha's jhāna completely, or retards its growth and full potential.







Dhammapardon wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:03 pm Hello Venerables and friends,

It appears often in translation associated with abandoning sloth and drowsiness but there isn't much else said.
https://suttacentral.net/dn12/en/thanissaro?reference=none&highlight=false wrote: Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light.
Attempting to understand this phrase experientialy and making an educated guess, percipient here usually gets translated from saññī of ālokasaññī (percipient of light). Saññī and saññā probably mean something very similar? Saññā being what one does with phenomena through one of the 5 aggregates (pancakhanda).

So likely means someone notices/recognizes the brightness of their immediate surroundings. Similar to leaving a darkened office or building into a sunny day and think "Wow it's bright outside" but the noticing is not with the verbal. More like in-the-moment noticing how bright the grass-covered area you often walk by is on a particular sunny day. Dwelling percipient of the light brightening the grass nearby brings alertness/abandons sloth & drowsiness..

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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:44 pm If you have a lamp that's charged with solar panels, if you only charge it up 20-30%, it's not as bright as it is charged up to 100%.
I think this is Frank speculation. There is no Sutta that say this.

There is no exit of jhana once the debt has been paid (nivarana is abandoned/let go). It is just moving from 1 (lower) to next higher jhana. The light will be automatic, there is no light that can blind your eyes.

For an arahant, one can move from low jhana to higher jhana as below simile. Not need to speed 6-10 hours to move from one jhana to next. See below.
sutta wrote:...as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or bend his outstretched arm...
Not all will have the psychic power to see the light, See Ven Sariputta. However you will see this statement who has mastered the jhana.
AN 3.63 wrote:...how your faculties are so very clear, and the complexion of your skin is pure and bright. ..
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:27 am
frank k wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:44 pm If you have a lamp that's charged with solar panels, if you only charge it up 20-30%, it's not as bright as it is charged up to 100%.
I think this is Frank speculation. There is no Sutta that say this.

There is no exit of jhana once the debt has been paid (nivarana is abandoned/let go). It is just moving from 1 (lower) to next higher jhana. The light will be automatic, there is no light that can blind your eyes.
How do you explain this?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html wrote: 9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.
this transl. clearly say emerging
https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Then the Buddha entered the first absorption. Emerging from that, he entered the second absorption.
Atha kho bhagavā paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajji, paṭhamajjhānā vuṭṭhahitvā dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajji,
in order to get into second jhana one will emerge from the first, its not going straight to second without emerging.

--
also, you are using the term debt. Do you mean sādhana?
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/s%C4%81dhana/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera

sādhana,(nt.),1.proving; 2.settling; 3.effecting; 4.clearing of a debt.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/sadhana wrote:Source: ISKCON Press: Glossary
Sādhana (साधन).—The beginning phase of devotional service, consisting of regulated practice.

Source: Pure Bhakti: Bhagavad-gita (4th edition)
Sādhana (साधन) refers to “method, or practice adopted to accomplish a specific goal. Without sādhana one cannot obtain the goal. Sādhana corresponds to various goals: those who desire material enjoyment adopt the path of karma as their sādhana, those who desire liberation adopt the path of jñāna, and those who aspire for the eternal loving service of Śrī Kṛṣṇa adopt the path of bhakti, which involves the spiritual practices of hearing, chanting and so on”. (cf. Glossary page from Śrīmad-Bhagavad-Gītā).
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

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auto wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:37 pm in order to get into second jhana one will emerge from the first, its not going straight to second without emerging.
As Buddha said Noble one dwells (viharati) in 3rd jhana mostly. Noble who master the jhana is going to conclude:
(same conclusion as Buddha and all ariya past/present/future that walk the path)
one lives in Upekkha, sati, and sukha.’
...with the fading away of piti, a mendicant lives in the third jhana, where they dwell with upekkha, sati and sampajanna, body is experiencing the sukha of which the noble ones declare, ‘one lives in Upekkha, sati, and sukha.’

It’s like a pool with blue water lilies, or pink or white lotuses. Some of them sprout and grow in the water without rising above it, thriving underwater. From the tip to the root they’re drenched, steeped, filled, and soaked with cool water. There’s no part of them that’s not soaked with cool water.
The body is like being soaked with cool water. Well never have any pain anymore. If mind is in 3rd jhana & above, there is No back pain and other bodily pain. Even there is no tooth ache. 😅😁

Viharati = people try to translate enter and emerging. There is no emerging. It is just enter and lives with it daily 24/7.

Assuming one has entered there is no going back. This is why one has entered samma samadhi/jhana there is no return to sensual realm ever anymore. But need to confirm it with other factors in Sutta. Only Sutta will do.

Btw, Only a fool will go back to sensual realm again once know piti/sukha. See MN 13.
--
also, you are using the term debt. Do you mean sādhana?
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/s%C4%81dhana/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
Look at the instruction before jhana formula for abandoning nivarana (bad thoughts/qualities & sensual pleasures). These are just a simile to make sure one can't miss when one has known the jhana
(samma samadhi).
dn 2 or any long sutta wrote:...Suppose a man who has gotten into debt were to apply himself to work, and his efforts proved successful. He would pay off the original loan and have enough left over to support his partner. Thinking about this, he’d be filled with joy and happiness.

Suppose there was a person who was sick, suffering, gravely ill. They’d lose their appetite and get physically weak. But after some time they’d recover from that illness, and regain their appetite and their strength. Thinking about this, they’d be filled with joy and happiness.

Suppose a person was imprisoned in a jail. But after some time they were released from jail, safe and sound, with no loss of wealth. Thinking about this, they’d be filled with joy and happiness.

Suppose a person was a bondservant. They would not be their own master, but indentured to another, unable to go where they wish. But after some time they’d be freed from servitude. They would be their own master, not indentured to another, an emancipated individual able to go where they wish. Thinking about this, they’d be filled with joy and happiness.

Suppose there was a person with wealth and property who was traveling along a desert road, which was perilous, with nothing to eat. But after some time they crossed over the desert safely, arriving within a village, a sanctuary free of peril. Thinking about this, they’d be filled with joy and happiness.

In the same way, as long as these five hindrances are not given up inside themselves, a mendicant regards them as a debt, a disease, a prison, slavery, and a desert crossing.

But when these five hindrances are given up inside themselves, a mendicant regards this as freedom from debt, good health, release from prison, emancipation, and a place of sanctuary at last.

Seeing that the hindrances have been given up in them, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, they feel bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed.

Totally detached from sensual pleasures, ...
Doesn't mean that the mind can't move to lower jhana (1st jhana). Which happen for a monk that discuss dhamma/preach. But usually the mind will move to higher jhana once the activity is done. Because lower jhana is coarse, and tiring the body especially 1st jhana with vitakka vicara.
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