Latent tendency to ignorance

[Agon]

Does removing the latent tendency to ignorance imply that one should be always aware of every neutral feeling that happens? Considering how many neutral feelings happen at the same time trough our body and senses, it seems like an impossible task.

[Sam Vara]

Does removing the latent tendency to ignorance imply that one should be always aware of every neutral feeling that happens? Considering how many neutral feelings happen at the same time trough our body and senses, it seems like an impossible task.

Presumably, this question is based on a reading on MN 44?

Personally. I wouldn't put it that way around - starting with the removal of the tendency to ignorance. How would one start to do that anyway?

I would see it as making an effort to be aware of neutral feelings when you catch them arising, and knowing that there is within them a latent tendency for ignorance. If we are aware of neutral feelings, we can see how the mind is often keen to jump on to the next thing because there is little there to interest it; we would rather have a pleasant feeling, or even an unpleasant one. In meditation, for example, this often manifests as an unwillingness to stay with something neutral like the touch of the breath or counting, and an almost irresistible desire to think of something pleasant or even unpleasant.

But, lady, what tendency lies latent in pleasant feeling, what tendency lies latent in painful feeling, what tendency lies latent in neutral feeling?” “Friend Visākha, a tendency to attachment lies latent in pleasant feeling; a tendency to repugnance lies latent in painful feeling; a tendency to ignorance lies latent in a neutral feeling.”

“But, lady, does a tendency to attachment lie latent in all pleasant feeling? Does a tendency to repugnance lie latent in all painful feeling? Does a tendency to ignorance lie latent in all neutral feeling?” “Friend Visākha, a tendency to attachment does not lie latent in all pleasant feeling, a tendency to repugnance does not lie latent in all painful feeling, a tendency to ignorance does not lie latent in all neutral feeling.”

“But, lady, what is to be got rid of in pleasant feeling? What is to be got rid of in painful feeling? What is to be got rid of in neutral feeling?” “A tendency to attachment, friend Visākha, is to be got rid of in pleasant feeling; a tendency to repugnance is to be got rid of in painful feeling; a tendency to ignorance is to be got rid of in neutral feeling.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/horner ... ight=false

I think Horner's translation brings this out the best. I would see this as identifying the neutral feeling, and then trying to eliminate that underlying tendency which leads to ignoring it in favour of other feelings. As the sutta also says, neutral feeling is pleasant when known. The breath or the counting start to be really appealing when one stays with them.

[Agon]

Thanks for the answer

Presumably, this question is based on a reading on MN 44?

Yes, also MN44

I would see it as making an effort to be aware of neutral feelings when you catch them arising

So are you saying that you should be aware of the neutral feeling that comes from your main object of attention in that moment? Without necessarily giving attention to all the subtle feelings that are there "in the background" of your experience?

If we are aware of neutral feelings, we can see how the mind is often keen to jump on to the next thing because there is little there to interest it; we would rather have a pleasant feeling, or even an unpleasant one.

This seems straightforward, in this case ignorance would be understood as a sort of afflictive indifference that come from craving and avversion for more interesting, non neutral objects.

[Sam Vara]

Thanks for the answer

Presumably, this question is based on a reading on MN 44?

Yes, also MN44

I would see it as making an effort to be aware of neutral feelings when you catch them arising

So are you saying that you should be aware of the neutral feeling that comes from your main object of attention in that moment? Without necessarily giving attention to all the subtle feelings that are there "in the background" of your experience?

If we are aware of neutral feelings, we can see how the mind is often keen to jump on to the next thing because there is little there to interest it; we would rather have a pleasant feeling, or even an unpleasant one.

This seems straightforward, in this case ignorance would be understood as a sort of afflictive indifference that come from craving and avversion for more interesting, non neutral objects.

Yes, I'm not personally confident enough to be too prescriptive about it, but that's how it makes sense to me in the context of practice. I would ask myself "what is the hedonic tone of what I am feeling right now", rather than wondering if there are other feelings that I am not so aware of. And then watching how there is the underlying tendency to ignore neutrality, just as there is the underlying tendency to resist displeasure and to crave pleasure.

[anagaarika]

I would upvote what Sam Vara wrote. The four frameworks of mindfulness should really be understood as "mindfulness in a meaningful context". Mindfulness of neutral feelings has been my prominent topic for quite some time. What you should look for is the tendency to get dissatisfied with a neutral feeling and be reborn into something exciting (or even unpleasant, frightening, anxious, as has been pointed out, which is really remarkable if you think about it - the mind prefers friction, even if it´s a conflict and not a pleasant sensation). Being aware of every neutral feeling for it´s own sake does not seem to be the point, just as being aware of every single bodily sensation would be pointless.

If you really delve into this, it´s quite a complex territory. The three kinds of feelings are like coloured glasses that keep constantly rotating, colouring our view of reality. A lot of of wise reflection and even steadiness of mind is needed to be able to step back and see that it´s all just a simulation of your mind.

Also, the notion of "neutrality" of neutral feelings is somewhat more complicated than it´s made out to be in textbooks. Some people even argue that there really is no such a thing as a "neutral" feeling - if it comes after a pleasant feeling, it is closer to an unpleasant feeling, and vice versa.

Another important point: The scope of neutral feelings is very broad and encompasses a wide range of sensations. Anything from the most mundane everyday bland feeling of boredom at work or school up to the most refined feeling of meditative equanimity. This begs the question again: Are these really "neutral"? Isn´t the former a kind of slight aversion and the latter a kind of a very subtle pleasantness?

Overall, I agree that mindfulness and thorough examination of neutral feelings is crucial. In my experience, it is also the most difficult of the three. Exactly as has been noted, I have many times experienced that the mind prefers an aversive feeling to a neutral one. Ajahn Amaro explains this as a craving for defined being.

Another thing I noticed is that the three feelings are three weapons of the mind-Mara. First come the "bribes". The mind starts to generate beautiful thoughts, images, sensations, trying to entice you with the pleasantness (which can be beyond all pleasantness the meditator has encountered so far in their life). If this doesn´t work and you keep pushing, the mind resorts to great fear, disturbing images etc. At this point it is already quite desperate, it will throw everything it has on you. Even if ít´s very unpleasant, it´s important not to retreat. This stage will be much shorter than the previous one, but you have to face it and not be intimidated. And the last obstacle should probably be the neutral feelings, which for me manifest as a dissatisfaction with what´s present, a sense of inadequacy (hard to describe, hard to identify). It is the most difficult to see because it´s not as noisy as pleasantness and not as aggresive as aversion.

This progression also makes sense with regard to the progression of fetters. Sense desire (sukha vedana) and aversion (dukkha vedana) are dealt with earlier than restlessness (neutral). Again as Ajahn Amaro says: Peace is boring. The mind will have the tendency to move away from the neutral feeling to the very last moment before full liberation. Another great definition of restlessness is from Ajahn Punnadhammo: It is the belief that there is anywhere in the universe something more interesting than THIS (aka the present).

[Agon]

Ok. It seems clear to me.
Only thing is restlessness, i have always interpreted it as a fundamental inquietude toward existence, a sort of anxiety or worry. In that case it would be more related to negative feelings rather than neutral ones. Was I wrong then?

[anagaarika]

Ok. It seems clear to me.
Only thing is restlessness, i have always interpreted it as a fundamental inquietude toward existence, a sort of anxiety or worry. In that case it would be more related to negative feelings rather than neutral ones. Was I wrong then?

"fundamental inquietude toward existence" sounds spot on. You know, I´m in no position to give an authoritative answer to that, but you might be right. The main thing is that aversion goes before restlessness, which to me suggests that the remaining problem in the higher stages of the path are neutral feelings, but we´re splitting hairs here.

The point is to see for yourself how your experience of the world revolves around the three feelings, how your mind gets into selfing around them and attaches to them. The only true freedom is the freedom from reactivity towards the three feelings.

[pegembara]

And the last obstacle should probably be the neutral feelings, which for me manifest as a dissatisfaction with what´s present, a sense of inadequacy (hard to describe, hard to identify). It is the most difficult to see because it´s not as noisy as pleasantness and not as aggresive as aversion.

This progression also makes sense with regard to the progression of fetters. Sense desire (sukha vedana) and aversion (dukkha vedana) are dealt with earlier than restlessness (neutral). Again as Ajahn Amaro says: Peace is boring. The mind will have the tendency to move away from the neutral feeling to the very last moment before full liberation. Another great definition of restlessness is from Ajahn Punnadhammo: It is the belief that there is anywhere in the universe something more interesting than THIS (aka the present).

Pleasant and unpleasant are easy to spot. The neutral feeling turns to boredom(subtle aversion masking as restlessness).
Rather than being, one prefers some kind of doing. Even the 'attempt' to do nothing is a form of doing too.
The mind still wants to engage with 'something' whatever it is. It is not yet done with existence IMO.
There is that feeling of 'I'd rather be somewhere else'. That feeling of THIS HERE NOW actually becomes a problem for
the here implies there is a somewhere else.

After a while, though, there was a strange feeling of being
cramped, a quality of containment or limitation. I thought,
“What is this about?” There was clear seeing that things
are anicca, dukkha, anattā, not-self, empty of substance;
but there was also this strange limitation, a strange kind
of tension in the system. And it suddenly dawned on me
and became clear, “Ah! It’s all happening here”. I realized
that it was the mind creating the feeling of locatedness, that
everything was happening in “my” mind, even though the
usual crystallizations of the “I” feeling were absent. I real-
ized my mind was attached to the notion that it was happen-
ing “here”, at this spot.

At the risk of being too abstruse, I feel this is a helpful
thing to look at. It was clear to me that until that point I
hadn’t actually seen the attachment to the feeling of place
or the feeling of location that the mind creates—the sense
of “here-ness”, in this spot, this geographical centre where
things are felt.

I don’t know if any of you have intuited or felt this but it
was very striking to me at that time. I suddenly realized there
was an attachment to the idea that awareness was happening
in this place, this location. So I began to look at that very
feeling of locatedness and the sense of things happening
here. I used a very simple and straightforward reflection:
bringing to mind the word “here” or saying to myself, “It’s
all happening here”. By bringing the attention to it, the word
“here” began to seem absurd. Then a whole extra layer of
letting go was able to happen.

Mindfulness of Emotions and Thoughts, and the Non‑location of Mind
Ajahn Amaro

[anagaarika]

After a while, though, there was a strange feeling of being
cramped, a quality of containment or limitation. I thought,
“What is this about?” There was clear seeing that things
are anicca, dukkha, anattā, not-self, empty of substance;
but there was also this strange limitation, a strange kind
of tension in the system. And it suddenly dawned on me
and became clear, “Ah! It’s all happening here”. I realized
that it was the mind creating the feeling of locatedness, that
everything was happening in “my” mind, even though the
usual crystallizations of the “I” feeling were absent. I real-
ized my mind was attached to the notion that it was happen-
ing “here”, at this spot.

At the risk of being too abstruse, I feel this is a helpful
thing to look at. It was clear to me that until that point I
hadn’t actually seen the attachment to the feeling of place
or the feeling of location that the mind creates—the sense
of “here-ness”, in this spot, this geographical centre where
things are felt.

I don’t know if any of you have intuited or felt this but it
was very striking to me at that time. I suddenly realized there
was an attachment to the idea that awareness was happening
in this place, this location. So I began to look at that very
feeling of locatedness and the sense of things happening
here. I used a very simple and straightforward reflection:
bringing to mind the word “here” or saying to myself, “It’s
all happening here”. By bringing the attention to it, the word
“here” began to seem absurd. Then a whole extra layer of
letting go was able to happen.

Mindfulness of Emotions and Thoughts, and the Non‑location of Mind
Ajahn Amaro

Excellent quote by Ven. Amaro. The aspect of "locatedness" in time and space is rarely talk about. And yes, both definitely have to do with restlessness.

[sunnat]

A synonym, particularly apt, for pre judice is tendency.
rush to judgment (noun) A conclusion reached hastily and informed by incomplete information.
Pre - before
Judice - in front of a judge
The tendency to judge before all information is gathered and presented before an impartial judge is driven by the tendency to remain ignorant of particular truths.


without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither pleasant nor painful sense-feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - liberation is impossible.

Instead there is the continued wandering around in the thicket of views.

It is very important to understand that true knowledge is not knowledge gained by reading, listening or thinking. Rather the true knowledge or liberating wisdom (panna) arises as a result of insight meditation.

The point here in relation to the OP is that neutral feelings must be known. The long time acquired tendency is to not be aware of them, yet they are the driving force to so much action that in turn maintains one in the state of ignorance.

A simple example is seen when trying to sit still.

One makes a determination to not move and it is not long before some part of the mind body phenomenon moves. A hand moves to scratch. A leg shifts. A foot moves. A thought comes.

The impulse for these kammas are subtle neutral feelings below the level of awareness. They are doors to progress on the path.

Gradually as mindfulness is developed these doors are revealed and what once was a neutral feeling becomes known and are dealt with: by making ‘an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant sense-feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful sense-feeling’ and liberation becomes possible. In turn further tendencies to ignorance are revealed.

All this happens in real time. In the present moment. Whatever arises in the present is to be met with atapi sampajano satima. The continuous equanimous awareness of the continually changing now.

With the resulting wisdom good judgement can be made.