Faith in Sangha (as in Triple Gem)

[Alex123]

Hello all,

You know how one is supposed to have faith/confidence in Triple Gem and that is one of the characteristics of a Sotapanna.

What exactly does "Sangha" mean?
Only Ariya-Sangha?
Entire physical Sangha?
If so, does that include non-Theravada (as in Mahayana, Vajrayana) sangha?

Thanks.

[SarathW]

Hello all,

You know how one is supposed to have faith/confidence in Triple Gem and that is one of the characteristics of a Sotapanna.

What exactly does "Sangha" mean? Please read the attached Sutta
Only Ariya-Sangha? Yes according to this Sutta
Entire physical Sangha?
If so, does that include non-Theravada (as in Mahayana, Vajrayana) sangha?

Thanks.

‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, systematic, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn11.3/en/suja ... ript=latin

[SarathW]

Hello all,

You know how one is supposed to have faith/confidence in Triple Gem and that is one of the characteristics of a Sotapanna.

What exactly does "Sangha" mean? Please read the attached Sutta
Only Ariya-Sangha? Yes according to this Sutta
Entire physical Sangha? Perhaps include one passed away too
If so, does that include non-Theravada (as in Mahayana, Vajrayana) sangha?This may include even lay people as far as they are Ariya according to this Sutta

Thanks.

‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, systematic, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn11.3/en/suja ... ript=latin

[santa100]

Hello all,

You know how one is supposed to have faith/confidence in Triple Gem and that is one of the characteristics of a Sotapanna.

What exactly does "Sangha" mean?
Only Ariya-Sangha?
Entire physical Sangha?
If so, does that include non-Theravada (as in Mahayana, Vajrayana) sangha?

Thanks.

See Pali Dict's definition
So per the def. as long as there're Noble disciples there, it shouldn't matter if it's a Theravada sangha or not.

[form]

I never understand this. Unless the group individuals practice very much the same, surely there will be many conflicts.

[pegembara]

Confirmed confidence that there are noble sangha members who have realized.

(10) “He holds wrong view and has an incorrect perspective thus: ‘There is nothing given, nothing sacrificed, nothing offered; there is no fruit or result of good and bad actions; there is no this world, no other world; there is no mother, no father; there are no beings spontaneously reborn; there are in the world no ascetics and brahmins of right conduct and right practice who, having realized this world and the other world for themselves by direct knowledge, make them known to others.’

https://suttacentral.net/an10.211/en/bo ... ight=false

[Alex123]

Thank you all for your helpful replies!

[Eko Care]

Actually it is not a good practice to judge serious religious matters without referring the commentary. People might say whatever they think, especially in this era of degeneration.

Khuddakapāṭha-aṭṭhakathā
1.Saraṇattayavaṇṇanā

Ayañhi paramatthasaṅgho saraṇanti gamanīyo. Sutte ca “Āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā”ti (itivu· 90; a· ni· 4.34, 181) vutto. Etaṃ pana saraṇaṃ gatassa aññasmimpi bhikkhusaṅghe vā bhikkhunisaṅghe vā buddhappamukhe vā saṅghe sammutisaṅghe vā catuvaggādibhede ekapuggalepi vā bhagavantaṃ uddissa pabbajite vandanādikiriyāya saraṇagamanaṃ neva bhijjati na saṃkilissati, ayamettha viseso.

My rough translation:

Explaining Triple Refuge
What should be gone forth is this ultimate sangha (ariya sangha).
It is also mentioned in the suttas as "Āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo (wothy of receiving dana) añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā (supreme field of merit)".
The saranagamana (status of gone forth) does not break or is not stained by the acts of vandana etc to other

• bhikkhusaṅgha or

• bhikkhunisaṅgha or

• buddhappamukha-saṅgha (sangha headed by the Buddha) or

• sammutisaṅgha (conventional sangha) or

• one of catuvaggasaṅgha etc (4/5/10/20/20+ monks) or

• one who has ordained with reference to the Blessed One.

This is the difference herein.

Once The Blessed One advised one person to not to look for perfected monks to offer dana, but to offer to conventional sangha, because it is hard for lay people to know Ariyas.

AN 6.59 Dārukammika Sutta:

Then the householder Dārukammika went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him, “Householder, I wonder whether your family gives gifts?”

“It does, sir. Gifts are given to those mendicants who are perfected or on the path to perfection; they live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, and wear rag robes.”

“Householder, as a layman enjoying sensual pleasures, living at home with your children, using sandalwood imported from Kāsi, wearing garlands, fragrance, and makeup, and accepting gold and money, it’s hard for you to know who is perfected or on the path to perfection.

If a mendicant living in the wilderness is restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, loose-tongued, unmindful, lacking situational awareness and immersion, with straying mind and undisciplined faculties, then in this respect they’re reprehensible. If a mendicant living in the wilderness is not restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, or loose-tongued, but has established mindfulness, situational awareness and immersion, with unified mind and restrained faculties, then in this respect they’re praiseworthy.

If a mendicant who lives within a village is restless …
If a mendicant who eats only almsfood is restless …
If a mendicant who accepts invitations is restless …
If a mendicant who wears rag robes is restless …
If a mendicant who wears robes offered by householders is restless...

Go ahead, householder, give gifts to the Saṅgha. Your mind will become bright and clear, and when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.”

“Sir, from this day forth I will give gifts to the Saṅgha.”

And the Commentary says:

Dārukammikasuttavaṇṇanā
...
So evaṃ vatvā satthāraṃ abhivādetvā pakkāmi. Athassa aparabhāge pañcasatā kulūpakā bhikkhū gihibhāvaṃ pāpuṇiṃsu. So “Kulūpakabhikkhū te vibbhantā”ti vutte “Kiṃ ettha mayha”nti vatvā cittuppādavemattamattampi na akāsi. Idaṃ sandhāya satthā saṅghe te dānaṃ dadato cittaṃ pasīdissatīti āha.

My rough translation:

Explaining Dārukammikasutta
He (the householder Dārukammika), having said that, having bowed the Buddha, went away. Later his 500 friend monks became lay. When he was told "your friend monks disrobed", he did not pay even a single thought, saying " What is there for me!". This is why the Buddha said "When you give dana to Sangha , your mind will become bright and clear."

[Ontheway]

Actually it is not a good practice to judge serious religious matters without referring the commentary. People might say whatever they think, especially in this era of degeneration.

Khuddakapāṭha-aṭṭhakathā
1.Saraṇattayavaṇṇanā

Ayañhi paramatthasaṅgho saraṇanti gamanīyo. Sutte ca “Āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā”ti (itivu· 90; a· ni· 4.34, 181) vutto. Etaṃ pana saraṇaṃ gatassa aññasmimpi bhikkhusaṅghe vā bhikkhunisaṅghe vā buddhappamukhe vā saṅghe sammutisaṅghe vā catuvaggādibhede ekapuggalepi vā bhagavantaṃ uddissa pabbajite vandanādikiriyāya saraṇagamanaṃ neva bhijjati na saṃkilissati, ayamettha viseso.

My rough translation:

Explaining Triple Refuge
What should be gone forth is this ultimate sangha (ariya sangha).
It is also mentioned in the suttas as "Āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo (wothy of receiving dana) añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā (supreme field of merit)".
The saranagamana (status of gone forth) does not break or is not stained by the acts of vandana etc to other

• bhikkhusaṅgha or

• bhikkhunisaṅgha or

• buddhappamukha-saṅgha (sangha headed by the Buddha) or

• sammutisaṅgha (conventional sangha) or

• one of catuvaggasaṅgha etc (4/5/10/20/20+ monks) or

• one who has ordained with reference to the Blessed One.

This is the difference herein.

Once The Blessed One advised one person to not to look for perfected monks to offer dana, but to offer to conventional sangha, because it is hard for lay people to know Ariyas.

AN 6.59 Dārukammika Sutta:

Then the householder Dārukammika went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him, “Householder, I wonder whether your family gives gifts?”

“It does, sir. Gifts are given to those mendicants who are perfected or on the path to perfection; they live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, and wear rag robes.”

“Householder, as a layman enjoying sensual pleasures, living at home with your children, using sandalwood imported from Kāsi, wearing garlands, fragrance, and makeup, and accepting gold and money, it’s hard for you to know who is perfected or on the path to perfection.

If a mendicant living in the wilderness is restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, loose-tongued, unmindful, lacking situational awareness and immersion, with straying mind and undisciplined faculties, then in this respect they’re reprehensible. If a mendicant living in the wilderness is not restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, or loose-tongued, but has established mindfulness, situational awareness and immersion, with unified mind and restrained faculties, then in this respect they’re praiseworthy.

If a mendicant who lives within a village is restless …
If a mendicant who eats only almsfood is restless …
If a mendicant who accepts invitations is restless …
If a mendicant who wears rag robes is restless …
If a mendicant who wears robes offered by householders is restless...

Go ahead, householder, give gifts to the Saṅgha. Your mind will become bright and clear, and when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.”

“Sir, from this day forth I will give gifts to the Saṅgha.”

And the Commentary says:

Dārukammikasuttavaṇṇanā
...
So evaṃ vatvā satthāraṃ abhivādetvā pakkāmi. Athassa aparabhāge pañcasatā kulūpakā bhikkhū gihibhāvaṃ pāpuṇiṃsu. So “Kulūpakabhikkhū te vibbhantā”ti vutte “Kiṃ ettha mayha”nti vatvā cittuppādavemattamattampi na akāsi. Idaṃ sandhāya satthā saṅghe te dānaṃ dadato cittaṃ pasīdissatīti āha.

My rough translation:

Explaining Dārukammikasutta
He (the householder Dārukammika), having said that, having bowed the Buddha, went away. Later his 500 friend monks became lay. When he was told "your friend monks disrobed", he did not pay even a single thought, saying " What is there for me!". This is why the Buddha said "When you give dana to Sangha , your mind will become bright and clear."

Excellent explanation

I used to very particular about this many years ago, but then I learned to give gifts to the Sangha, having the mindset that I am offering the food/requisite to all the Sangha in the past and present inclusive of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant, and sammuti sangha too, instead of just individual monk.