ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

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frank k
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ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by frank k »

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... gs-on.html

What do you guys think?
It nicely shifts the focus away from whether the savaka is noble or not, which is irrelevant.

The original context where the phrase 'ariya savaka' is used, is to contrast between
* an uneducated ordinary person who follows the savage ways that lead to suffering,
* versus an educated disciple following the Buddha's teaching on nobleness, undertaking the process of en-nobling oneself.

It's not to contrast whether one is an adept or novice or black belt at the ways of the ordinary person, versus whether one is a stream enterer or arahant in the noble path.
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by Eko Care »

Ariya Lite was an invention like Jhana Lite.

Though there can be some lax ways of using those words, the Commentary and Abhidhamma never allow belittling Ariya and Jhana.
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:29 pm What do you guys think?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I researched the issue of the compound's meaning recently. I guess it has been discussed on this forum already (?), but also for the record:

Noble disciple (ariyasāvako): The term refers to householders (gihī) or those gone forth (pabbajitā) that either have attained fruition (āgataphalā), have understood the dispensation (viññātasāsanā) or are merely accomplished in learning (sutasampannā). These are noble (ariyā) as well as disciples (sāvakā, Aṅguttaranikāya commentary: 48), but the compound ariyasāvako can also be rendered as “a disciple of the noble Buddha” (ariyassa buddhassa sāvako, Vibhaṅga commentary: 112).
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by frank k »

Ṭhānuttamo wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:57 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:29 pm What do you guys think?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I researched the issue of the compound's meaning recently. I guess it has been discussed on this forum already (?), but also for the record:

Noble disciple (ariyasāvako): The term refers to householders (gihī) or those gone forth (pabbajitā) that either have attained fruition (āgataphalā), have understood the dispensation (viññātasāsanā) or are merely accomplished in learning (sutasampannā). These are noble (ariyā) as well as disciples (sāvakā, Aṅguttaranikāya commentary: 48), but the compound ariyasāvako can also be rendered as “a disciple of the noble Buddha” (ariyassa buddhassa sāvako, Vibhaṅga commentary: 112).
1. Thanks Venerable. Can you be more explicit and detailed, especially what "These are noble as well as disciples" are being applied to?
My understanding is that the commentaries on ariyasāvako sort of vary on case to case basis depending on sutta, and not definitively establishing a consistent meaning in all contexts.

Bodhi and Sujato seemed to conclude that most of the time (most sutta references) the ariyasavaka is noble (at least stream enterer), but occasionally not noble.

2. I don't understand these two:
have understood the dispensation (viññātasāsanā) or are merely accomplished in learning (sutasampannā).
is the "they are noble" applied to them?
I wouldn't think so, if they are "merely accomplished in learning".
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by frank k »

Ṭhānuttamo wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:57 pm ...
I also forgot to ask, what you think of "disciple of [teachings on] nobleness"?
grammatically feasible?
I'm not aware of anyone ever proposing that interpretation before, treating 'ariya' as 'nobleness', intead of as a person.
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by frank k »

DPR search for 'sāvak' shows all the disciples
https://www.digitalpalireader.online/_d ... =1&rx=true

looking through there, I see many where the disciple is a follower of a famous teacher.

For example,
nigaṇṭha-sāvako (7), savaka are followers of the teacher named nigantha.

And in SN 8.9, “The senior monk who was awakened after the Buddha,

koṇḍañño buddhadāyādo {buddhasāvako (pī.)}, pāde vandati satthuno”ti.

kondanna is a disciple of the buddha. kondanna is not himself a Buddha.

So can someone point out a precedent, from that link, similar to the common interpretation that ariya-savaka is a "disciple who is a noble one" rather than what seems to me to be much more common, or perhaps the only grammatical interpretation used where the savaka is a disciple of that person named?
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:21 pm Bodhi and Sujato seemed to conclude that most of the time (most sutta references) the ariyasavaka is noble (at least stream enterer), but occasionally not noble. I don't understand these two: have understood the dispensation (viññātasāsanā) or are merely accomplished in learning (sutasampannā). Is the "they are noble" applied to them? I wouldn't think so, if they are "merely accomplished in learning".
Similar to the conclusions Vens. Bodhi and Sujāto reach, someone accomplished in learning may also be called "noble" at times, which is, more importantly, also in line with the commentaries. Generally speaking, it is just natural to assume different meanings for one Pāḷi word ...
frank k wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:21 pm I also forgot to ask, what you think of "disciple of [teachings on] nobleness"? grammatically feasible? I'm not aware of anyone ever proposing that interpretation before, treating 'ariya' as 'nobleness', intead of as a person.
So can someone point out a precedent, from that link, similar to the common interpretation that ariya-savaka is a "disciple who is a noble one" rather than what seems to me to be much more common, or perhaps the only grammatical interpretation used where the savaka is a disciple of that person named?
The borders seem quite blurry when it comes to distinguishing the noun "nobleness" from the adjective "noble," it seems, and either way, a proper understanding of the essence appears to be possible. But after all, I think no need to deviate unnecessarily from the ancient teachers' opinions (i.e., those of the first, second and third councils, which are contained in our commentaries). The explanation of "ariyassa buddhassa sāvako" would fit perfectly with the examples you quoted.
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by ssasny »

"Generally speaking, it is just natural to assume different meanings for one Pāḷi word ... "

Thank you for this very important point!
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by Eko Care »

Ṭhānuttamo wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:09 am But after all, I think no need to deviate unnecessarily from the ancient teachers' opinions (i.e., those of the first, second and third councils, which are contained in our commentaries). The explanation of "ariyassa buddhassa sāvako" would fit perfectly with the examples you quoted.
:goodpost:

Even the Non-Buddhist usage of the word 'Aryan' has multiple meanings and both adjective and noun forms.
Google Dictionary wrote:Aryan
adjective
1. relating to or denoting peoples speaking Indo-European (or specifically Indo-Iranian) languages, or ancient peoples thought to have spoken Proto-Indo-European, the hypothetical language from which Indo-European languages are believed to derive.
"the Aryan invasion theory is much debated"
2. (in Nazi ideology) of or denoting white non-Jewish people, especially those of northern European origin or descent typically having blonde hair and blue eyes and regarded as a supposedly superior racial group.
"Adolf Hitler's myth of Aryan supremacy"
noun
1. a member of a people speaking an Indo-European (or specifically Indo-Iranian) language, or of an ancient people thought to have spoken the hypothetical proto-Indo-European language.
"the place of origin of the Aryans has been variously sought in Europe and Asia"
2. (in Nazi ideology) a white non-Jewish person, especially one of northern European origin or descent typically having blonde hair and blue eyes and regarded as belonging to a supposedly superior racial group.
"he looked the image of the ideal Aryan: tall, with Nordic blonde hair"
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Re: ariya savaka: disciple of [teachings on] nobleness

Post by frank k »

Ṭhānuttamo wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:09 am ...
Similar to the conclusions Vens. Bodhi and Sujāto reach, someone accomplished in learning may also be called "noble" at times, which is, more importantly, also in line with the commentaries. Generally speaking, it is just natural to assume different meanings for one Pāḷi word ...
...
But that's why I'm objecting to Bodhi and Sujato's consistently translating ariya savaka everwhere (AFAIK) as "noble disciple" regardless of context and fit.
It has led to English readers thinking the disciple is an enlightened-noble disciple in all of those sutta occurrences,
rather than as you suggest:
it is just natural to assume different meanings for one Pāḷi word
The effect on the reader, most of them think, "Ok, this part of the sutta is talking about enlightened beings, so this teaching doesn't apply to me.
or,
they struggle trying to make sense of why that teaching requires someone to already be enlightened.
For example, right livelihood (SN 45.8). Why do you need to be enlightened already to do that?

I just don't think most people read carefully, reading the suttas in English.
If they did, they would translate same as thanissaro and myself, ariya-savaka = disciple of the noble ones,
then all passages make sense, and don't lead to lay disciples being lazy and complacent rationalizing those teachings about ariya-savaka don't apply to them.
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