Sankhara and craving/aversion

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Tl21G3lVl
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:51 am

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

In the context of DO, it is used to describe the forming of the requisite condition for consciousness. How is it that something fabricated can be a cause for consciousness?
Conditions are rarely described by a single word, such being the case of DO. It is not the case that fabrication/volition causes consciousness, fabrication/volition is the “condition” that leads to next “condition” in the chain. I am thinking that sankhara could just be a collection of self clinging feelings in three forms, that leads to a conditioned consciousness that is conditioned to be contacted as good, bad, neither good nor bad.
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Jack19990101 »

Pulsar
Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion
Post Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:15 am

The difference between 2nd link vs Khandas regarding to sankhara -
2nd link is kamma vipaka - it is directional, yet it is not intentional. Nama is yet to be established.
in clinging Khandas, sankhara is kamma.

2nd link, is un-preventable. Sankhara in Khandas, is very much preventable by watching our intention.

The two sankhara are of distinctive dimensions. All realms being has Vipaka Sankhara. Yet many of realms are lack of Khandas sankhara.

Sankhara anicca. Without participation by consciousness to stir, it will arise on its own, die back on its own.

In my speculation -

pure abode have this vipaka sankhara, but there is no Khandas sankhara. Beings there would just wait patiently for the vipaka sankhara to dissipate.

Sotapanna would have at most 7 lives for this sankhara to dissipate in a speed faster than new kamma is being added & ripen.
Brus963
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:17 am

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Brus963 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:22 pm Pulsar
Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion
Post Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:15 am

The difference between 2nd link vs Khandas regarding to sankhara -
2nd link is kamma vipaka - it is directional, yet it is not intentional. Nama is yet to be established.
in clinging Khandas, sankhara is kamma.

2nd link, is un-preventable. Sankhara in Khandas, is very much preventable by watching our intention.

The two sankhara are of distinctive dimensions. All realms being has Vipaka Sankhara. Yet many of realms are lack of Khandas sankhara.

Sankhara anicca. Without participation by consciousness to stir, it will arise on its own, die back on its own.

In my speculation -

pure abode have this vipaka sankhara, but there is no Khandas sankhara. Beings there would just wait patiently for the vipaka sankhara to dissipate.

Sotapanna would have at most 7 lives for this sankhara to dissipate in a speed faster than new kamma is being added & ripen.

What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but is it possible to put it into more "laymen" terms? Is it fair to say that 2nd link Sankhara, by your description, is more like the arising of habitual tendencies, built up over many lifetimes?
"Through the round of many births I roamed
without reward, without rest,
seeking the house-builder.
Painful is birth again & again.

House-builder, you're seen!
You will not build a house again."
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Jack19990101 »

Yeah - but it is not limited to tendencies.

It could also be a pointless ripening of kamma, the tendencies behind it have been uprooted.
In this case, consciousness won't take station in it.
It will die out by itself.

But again, this 'restless' nature of avijja, can be categorized as a tendency too.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Pulsar »

Thanks Jack199... for the response.
The difference between 2nd link vs Khandas regarding to sankhara -
2nd link is kamma vipaka - it is directional, yet it is not intentional. Nama is yet to be established.
in clinging Khandas, sankhara is kamma.
The first sankhara is defined as karma by some scholars. Even though some may object to that, I basically think that is the ever-present underlying tendency in the puthujjana.
Underlying tendency would be the imprints left by past activity. These come into play when sense objects are confronted, due to mental proliferation. This is how I understand it.
You wrote
2nd link, is un-preventable. Sankhara in Khandas, is very much preventable by watching our intention.
Can you describe how one watches one's intention? When you say preventable, do you mean preventing the rupa from arising and consequently naming it?
Once Nama-rupa comes into play, rest, of the sequence feeling, intention, craving being the result would be harder to stop. This is my experience.

Jack wrote
The two sankhara are of distinctive dimensions. All realms being has Vipaka Sankhara. Yet many of realms are lack of Khandas sankhara.
What do you mean by realm here? I have read of the realm of eye, realm of ear, realm of nose, realm of tongue, realm of touch in the Samyukta agama. I believe this was the meaning of realm in earliest Buddhism. Over time the tradition came up with deva realms, hell realms etc.
However, there is a sutta in the Salayatana Samyutta that says hell and heaven are found at the sense bases. This makes a lot of sense to me. Kajjaniya sutta appears to suggest that anything else belongs in the realm of mental proliferation.
You wrote
Sankhara anicca. Without participation by consciousness to stir, it will arise on its own, die back on its own.
Can you please elaborate on this?
You wrote
In my speculation -
pure abode have this vipaka sankhara, but there is no Khandas sankhara. Beings there would just wait patiently for the vipaka sankhara to dissipate.
Pure abodes are supposed to be destination of Non-returners. Do the Nikayas mention anywhere, that never- returners spend time there until vipaka sankharas dissipate?
You wrote
Sotapanna would have at most 7 lives for this sankhara to dissipate in a speed faster than new kamma is being added & ripen.
I have never seen it described like this in the sutta pitaka. But your speculation could be the operating mechanism. Based on what you write, it reinforces in my mind that the second link in the chain i.e. Samkhara or formations are a reference to the underlying tendencies.
What do you think? Thanks for taking the trouble to respond specifically.
With love :candle:
Brus963
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:17 am

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Brus963 »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Not long time ago, I've used the Book of Analayo to pass every occurrence of Sankhara he proposed:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... asping.pdf
Just wanted to say that I finally got around to reading Analayo's definition of Sankhara, and I think it is a great resource for understanding the term. Thank you for that, it was very helpful. :anjali:
"Through the round of many births I roamed
without reward, without rest,
seeking the house-builder.
Painful is birth again & again.

House-builder, you're seen!
You will not build a house again."
User avatar
nirodh27
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:31 pm

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by nirodh27 »

Brus963 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:20 am
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Not long time ago, I've used the Book of Analayo to pass every occurrence of Sankhara he proposed:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... asping.pdf
Just wanted to say that I finally got around to reading Analayo's definition of Sankhara, and I think it is a great resource for understanding the term. Thank you for that, it was very helpful. :anjali:
Glad that you liked it, I don't agree with Analayo's conclusion often, but his two books about terms are very very helpful as as a systematic survey.
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by form »

Craving is also volition. And volition is an unconscious response.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by mjaviem »

Brus963 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:22 pm Different translators use different English words when Translating Sankhara, eg. formations, fabrications, choices, preparations, etc. My understanding of the word at this point is that it is...
Sankhara --> Intentional making
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by mjaviem »

Brus963 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:32 am .... It would make sense for sankhara to be related to karma, since as far as I understand they share the same verbal root, kr = to do...
Sankhara --> Intentional making
Kamma --> Intentional acting
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by mjaviem »

Brus963 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:22 pm ...
My question is, does craving/aversion fall into this category as well? It seems that craving and aversion are driving forces which lead towards actions and experiences. Another thing that might fit into this category might be Anusaya, or underlying tendencies. I'm not really sure....
Everything is a sankhara for the unenlightened. When there's no understanding, "craving/aversion" and underlying tendencies are sankharas. Actions and experiences are sankharas.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
nowheat
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by nowheat »

Brus963 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:22 pm My question is, does craving/aversion fall into this category as well? It seems that craving and aversion are driving forces which lead towards actions and experiences. Another thing that might fit into this category might be Anusaya, or underlying tendencies. I'm not really sure. The word Sankhara has really been the hardest to wrap my head around.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Hello Brus963. I've been thinking about sankhara lately, and such thinking usually leads me to visit dhammawheel.

My understanding of sankhara is that it is a specific form of craving. To use your phrase it is a "driving force". I believe that sankhara -- a term that then and now refers to rituals of self-creation/improvement -- is itself the equivalent of the whole middle section of dependent arising (from feeling to at least clinging), and as such, does include craving and aversion. In support of my understanding, here's a sutta in which sankhara replaces that middle section of DA:
"Where there is passion, delight, & craving for the nutriment of consciousness, consciousness lands there and increases. Where consciousness lands and increases, there is the alighting of name-&-form. Where there is the alighting of name-&-form, there is the growth of fabrications*. Where there is the growth of fabrications, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging, & death, together, I tell you, with sorrow, affliction, & despair.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

* yattha atthi nāmarūpassa avakkanti, atthi tattha saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi.
But then, I have the unusual theory that the Buddha's use of the term sankhara was intended to evoke rituals of self-creation that were based on creation myths popular in his time, and that the whole central section of Dependent Arising -- intended to parallel those rituals -- was about our "rituals" that are actually habits of thinking that lead us to creating what passes for a lasting self.

When trying to understand definitions of sankhara in the suttas, I find it helpful to recognize that a lot of what's being described is the visible result of sankhara -- our actions in body, speech, mind -- not sankhara itself. Even "fabrications" and "volitions" are products of sankhara, not sankhara itself.

--
Linda B.
User avatar
Sasha_A
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Sankhara and craving/aversion

Post by Sasha_A »

As an invitation to some different perspectives on one of the actually most important topics in the whole Dhamma:
Ven. Nanavira wrote:SAṄKHĀRA
A full discussion of this key word is given in A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPĀDA. It is there maintained that the word sankhāra, in all contexts, means 'something that something else depends on', that is to say a determination (determinant).
Sāmanera Bodhesako wrote:A LETTER ON SANKHĀRA
But “killer” and “killed” are no more different in grammatical form than are sankhāra and sankhata.
...
Not only do we find sankhāra used in parallel with paticcasamuppāda but also we find sankhata used in parallel with paticcasamuppanna, what arises dependently
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
Post Reply