Meditating "Tearing-down-that-house" style

[Dhammapardon]

Greetings Bhante, I hope you're well.
I did not want to pull away from the other topic but found this wording most appealing and wanted to ask about it in hopes to solidify understanding.

I thought I was getting good sitting meditation but it was just sleeping sitting up and it was too tranquilizing. As result, during reading activities I couldn't comprehend most things I read because the words were too bothersome to remaining tranquil.

Then this is pointed out:

Tearing down that house is easy; meditate on the skandhas one at a time... watch the one chosen arise and pass arise and pass and keep doing that ignoring the other one's... once samatha and vipasana have arisen with it go to another one and watch how it arises and passes arises and passes... don't let them connect just keep focusing on the next one
same as you did with the first... on through the others in the same way. Then watch all five arise and pass and finally how they keep linking up together.

That is the only way I know of to completely uproot them... chasing jhana around in every plane of existence wont do that...

These parts stuck out and sent me to examine. I don't know why these wordings were so catchy compared to others but very glad they did.

Please can you help to ensure this is understood correctly? Apologies for no pali, it's hard enough to write from understanding into my own language still.
Are these the individual processes to watch like mentioned?

- Physical eye looks at some sight and eye consciousness sees it
- Eye consciousness experiences sight sensation
- Sight sensation is recognized and labeled
- Thoughts,feelings,volitions.. about sight sensation/recognition

- Same with physical nose smelling a scent and nose consciousness smells it
- Nose consciousness experiences scent sensation
- Scent sensation is recognized and labeled
- Thoughts, feelings, volitions about scent sensation/recognition

- Same with physical mind forming non-physical mind-things and mind consciousness observing it
- Mind consciousness experiences observed non-physical mind-formation
- Non-physical mind-formation sensation is recognized and labeled
- Thoughts,feelings,volitions.. about the non-physical mind-formation

And at the conclusion of each observation, the respective one of six consciousness cease, shifts to a new observation then starts again?

May we all awaken.

[pudai]

Buddhism is typically taught as there are five senses with the mind being the sixth and consciousness makes one aware or alive.

That is the wrong teaching; the eye all in and of itself as an organ of perception is a wholly full functioning consciousness and a mind of it's own... applying the yoke to the eye known as samadhi tames it like the ox herding pictures. Eyes going one way ears going another way nose going one way is the tar trap of the monkey dont have to hunt for it those beings snare themselves but all of those consciousnesses are not one otherwise its mind only or the Madhyamaka school and saying that's ALL there is "Is mind" as the all the fact of samsara and nibbana as elements existing refutes that.

Consciousness is where all the life awake and aware exist... the eye in jhana is different than the ear in jhana the nose etc... all of those separate consciousnesses needs to be yoked as they are a bhavayana all in and of themselves believing in "oneness" as a reality if such a thing were true when death occurred all people would experience it at once... but as we know in Buddhism unless heat leaves the body? It's not dead as Nirodha goes. Whn someone says head and heart when the mind is in the heart its hot it's aflame and then when reversed it cools like a fever.

Noticing yourself like a baby upwrapped in a blanket well fed before noon to stare at the ceiling until night happy you dont have to work happy you can leave any argument or task just like Gautama in the Bhrama suttras and say it is a worldling pursuit is abandoning what has arisen and seeks refuge elsewhere due to suffering arising...

When zen says nirvana and samsara are the same they are not joking one is grasping at all the dos and do nots while the already done walk right on through and afterawhile it the one noble truth of suffering as all that is existing... whats strange is thats what gautama realized as ENLIGHTENMENT his only place he could put his mind out of suffering was remembering a time a place such and such existed and thats what he did... laying there poisoned beaten robbed raped whatever? He'd place his mind back to that point.

Samadhi is that nature and so is death it comes to one point the eye yoked like a monkey in the tar trap the other five buddha bodies are free to move on and return as when all things are returnable to one... To what is the one returnable? Eye is that was the samadhi or focus goes back to the other five being aware and awake not asleep or "cold"... heart of the teaching is what such and such as this used to be called.

Honestly if I were Gautama? I'd yoke my mind to cow dung instead of all the way back to his ignorance under that tree... there is a path and it is said don't forget the Tang is also one for the hearers to be mindful of during the three watches. Tibet is an easy path but only two remain; Twinkling bells and a bunch of whores yelling at cows. As only path as like the stupid natives of the mid-west drunk on the sky and call it god such are those in the land of the snows...

[Dhammapardon]

Apologies for the delayed response Bhante, you are good at putting much into few words and it takes some time to attempt understanding.

Buddhism is typically taught as there are five senses with the mind being the sixth and consciousness makes one aware or alive.

That is the wrong teaching; the eye all in and of itself as an organ of perception is a wholly full functioning consciousness and a mind of it's own...

I believe we are saying the same thing but my understanding of it is still early.
I say: Rupa eye + eye vinnana.
You say Rupa eye IS eye vinnana combined too.

Nama-rupa? Nama being eye vinnana and rupa being rupa eye?

applying the yoke to the eye known as samadhi tames it like the ox herding pictures. Eyes going one way ears going another way nose going one way is the tar trap of the monkey but all of those consciousnesses are not one otherwise its mind only..

You say applying the yoke to the eye or ear... is samadhi. Is this anapanasati taking only eye with the breath? In the seen there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard? One object of salyatana at one time? So strongly connected to eye and seen, no sound or touch or smell steals attention?

When I watch and listen to people talk, sometimes both eye and ear consciousness work together. Same object so it's ok?

Alternatively, I hear washing machine washing clothes right now while I read and cognize your writing. This is the tar trap monkey scrambling in many directions? Rupa ear and ear vinnana attend washing machine noise, rupa eye and eye vinnana read words, rupa mind and mind vinnana cognize scramble of words and noise?

...or the Madhyamaka school and saying that's ALL there is "Is mind" as the all the fact of samsara and nibbana as elements existing refutes that.

I don't know Madhyamaka school but it sounds like you are accusing them of believing vinnana is only 1 (all mind) and not 6(5+1 mind).

Consciousness is where all the life awake and aware exist... the eye in jhana is different than the ear in jhana the nose etc... all of those separate consciousnesses needs to be yoked as they are a bhavayana all in and of themselves...

I think you explain further the point from above, each consciousness of salyatana is different than another (eye consciousness separate from ear consciousness...). When observing this way, must it be jhana or can it be samadhi without jhana or are jhana and samadhi same thing?

...believing in "oneness" as a reality if such a thing were true when death occurred all people would experience it at once... but as we know in Buddhism unless heat leaves the body? It's not dead as Nirodha goes. Whn someone says head and heart when the mind is in the heart its hot it's aflame and then when reversed it cools like a fever.

Not necessarily. Fingers are part of the hand, but cut one finger and the other fingers do not feel it.

Heat comes in two ways though. Heat of passion and heat of heart release. You speak like someone is supposed to cool both or maybe I'm not understanding.

Noticing yourself like a baby upwrapped in a blanket well fed before noon to stare at the ceiling until night happy you dont have to work happy you can leave any argument or task just like Gautama in the Bhrama suttras and say it is a worldling pursuit is abandoning what has arisen and seeks refuge elsewhere due to suffering arising...

Maybe you can confirm I understand you correctly here. You are stating residing in pleasant abiding from noon to night = worldly indulgence and = aversion from suffering = not the path?

When zen says nirvana and samsara are the same they are not joking one is grasping at all the dos and do nots while the already done walk right on through and afterawhile it the one noble truth of suffering as all that is existing...

Before enlightenment chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment chop wood, fetch water, smile.
What if before enlightenment a baby upwrapped in a blanket well fed before noon to stare at the ceiling until night happy?

whats strange is thats what gautama realized as ENLIGHTENMENT his only place he could put his mind out of suffering was remembering a time a place such and such existed and thats what he did... laying there poisoned beaten robbed raped whatever? He'd place his mind back to that point.

I maybe understood that story under the tree wrong. I thought he identified the childhood memory as a jhana but not enlightnment? Are you saying that memory was enlightenment and he holds the memory to access enlightenment during bad times?

Samadhi is that nature and so is death it comes to one point the eye yoked like a monkey in the tar trap the other five buddha bodies are free to move on and return as when all things are returnable to one... To what is the one returnable? Eye is that was the samadhi or focus goes back to the other five being aware and awake not asleep or "cold"... heart of the teaching is what such and such as this used to be called.

Do you speak here about imperturbability of eye consciousness which allows other 5 consciousness freedom? For example, having pervasive akusala thought one can yoke to the eye, and mind is freed of the akusala thought? Then one can unyoke the eye and return to equal 6 senses?

Honestly if I were Gautama? I'd yoke my mind to cow dung instead of all the way back to his ignorance under that tree...

Why not the breath? Why cow dung? The breath was with him then, with him from birth to death. With all of us from birth til death. Seems easier than a memory of shady trees or cow dung.

there is a path and it is said don't forget the Tang is also one for the hearers to be mindful of during the three watches.

Can you please speak more on this? What is Tang? I also do not understand what the three watches means unless this is arising, persisting, and fading of a sense consciousness.

Tibet is an easy path but only two remain; Twinkling bells and a bunch of whores yelling at cows. As only path as like the stupid natives of the mid-west drunk on the sky and call it god such are those in the land of the snows...

If I understand you here, this is sort of mean assessment even if some truth. Rights and rituals, proselytizing, and believing in sky people while skiing in the alps still have some wholesome qualities compared to many other activities people could do instead.

I hope my interpretations and questions are as path-focused as your insights have been. I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion.

Be well Bhante.

[pudai]

Apologies for the delayed response Bhante, you are good at putting much into few words and it takes some time to attempt understanding.

Buddhism is typically taught as there are five senses with the mind being the sixth and consciousness makes one aware or alive.

That is the wrong teaching; the eye all in and of itself as an organ of perception is a wholly full functioning consciousness and a mind of it's own...

I believe we are saying the same thing but my understanding of it is still early.
I say: Rupa eye + eye vinnana.
You say Rupa eye IS eye vinnana combined too.

Nama-rupa? Nama being eye vinnana and rupa being rupa eye?

applying the yoke to the eye known as samadhi tames it like the ox herding pictures. Eyes going one way ears going another way nose going one way is the tar trap of the monkey but all of those consciousnesses are not one otherwise its mind only..

You say applying the yoke to the eye or ear... is samadhi. Is this anapanasati taking only eye with the breath? In the seen there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard? One object of salyatana at one time? So strongly connected to eye and seen, no sound or touch or smell steals attention?

When I watch and listen to people talk, sometimes both eye and ear consciousness work together. Same object so it's ok?

Alternatively, I hear washing machine washing clothes right now while I read and cognize your writing. This is the tar trap monkey scrambling in many directions? Rupa ear and ear vinnana attend washing machine noise, rupa eye and eye vinnana read words, rupa mind and mind vinnana cognize scramble of words and noise?

...or the Madhyamaka school and saying that's ALL there is "Is mind" as the all the fact of samsara and nibbana as elements existing refutes that.

I don't know Madhyamaka school but it sounds like you are accusing them of believing vinnana is only 1 (all mind) and not 6(5+1 mind).

Consciousness is where all the life awake and aware exist... the eye in jhana is different than the ear in jhana the nose etc... all of those separate consciousnesses needs to be yoked as they are a bhavayana all in and of themselves...

I think you explain further the point from above, each consciousness of salyatana is different than another (eye consciousness separate from ear consciousness...). When observing this way, must it be jhana or can it be samadhi without jhana or are jhana and samadhi same thing?

...believing in "oneness" as a reality if such a thing were true when death occurred all people would experience it at once... but as we know in Buddhism unless heat leaves the body? It's not dead as Nirodha goes. Whn someone says head and heart when the mind is in the heart its hot it's aflame and then when reversed it cools like a fever.

Not necessarily. Fingers are part of the hand, but cut one finger and the other fingers do not feel it.

Heat comes in two ways though. Heat of passion and heat of heart release. You speak like someone is supposed to cool both or maybe I'm not understanding.

Noticing yourself like a baby upwrapped in a blanket well fed before noon to stare at the ceiling until night happy you dont have to work happy you can leave any argument or task just like Gautama in the Bhrama suttras and say it is a worldling pursuit is abandoning what has arisen and seeks refuge elsewhere due to suffering arising...

Maybe you can confirm I understand you correctly here. You are stating residing in pleasant abiding from noon to night = worldly indulgence and = aversion from suffering = not the path?

When zen says nirvana and samsara are the same they are not joking one is grasping at all the dos and do nots while the already done walk right on through and afterawhile it the one noble truth of suffering as all that is existing...

Before enlightenment chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment chop wood, fetch water, smile.
What if before enlightenment a baby upwrapped in a blanket well fed before noon to stare at the ceiling until night happy?

whats strange is thats what gautama realized as ENLIGHTENMENT his only place he could put his mind out of suffering was remembering a time a place such and such existed and thats what he did... laying there poisoned beaten robbed raped whatever? He'd place his mind back to that point.

I maybe understood that story under the tree wrong. I thought he identified the childhood memory as a jhana but not enlightnment? Are you saying that memory was enlightenment and he holds the memory to access enlightenment during bad times?

Samadhi is that nature and so is death it comes to one point the eye yoked like a monkey in the tar trap the other five buddha bodies are free to move on and return as when all things are returnable to one... To what is the one returnable? Eye is that was the samadhi or focus goes back to the other five being aware and awake not asleep or "cold"... heart of the teaching is what such and such as this used to be called.

Do you speak here about imperturbability of eye consciousness which allows other 5 consciousness freedom? For example, having pervasive akusala thought one can yoke to the eye, and mind is freed of the akusala thought? Then one can unyoke the eye and return to equal 6 senses?

Honestly if I were Gautama? I'd yoke my mind to cow dung instead of all the way back to his ignorance under that tree...

Why not the breath? Why cow dung? The breath was with him then, with him from birth to death. With all of us from birth til death. Seems easier than a memory of shady trees or cow dung.

there is a path and it is said don't forget the Tang is also one for the hearers to be mindful of during the three watches.

Can you please speak more on this? What is Tang? I also do not understand what the three watches means unless this is arising, persisting, and fading of a sense consciousness.

Tibet is an easy path but only two remain; Twinkling bells and a bunch of whores yelling at cows. As only path as like the stupid natives of the mid-west drunk on the sky and call it god such are those in the land of the snows...

If I understand you here, this is sort of mean assessment even if some truth. Rights and rituals, proselytizing, and believing in sky people while skiing in the alps still have some wholesome qualities compared to many other activities people could do instead.

I hope my interpretations and questions are as path-focused as your insights have been. I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion.

Be well Bhante.

Not knowing is often taken as emptiness with a thirst to be full or a way to dispel ignorance; When it is ignorance that is empty accidentally creating a fullness due to that emptiness.

Mindfulness is all the senses and their objects fully absorbed in their oneness of being and sentient in the form of a body.

When having a memory; where is body? Such a wandering is formless and out of mindfulness of the present where they are lost who knows? But it is the equivalent of death yet there is a remainder or heat that such beings are ignorant of existing.

The Gautama Buddha often is quoted to say: can be cognized as forms or realized by the mind in the here and now for oneself; The moment of the present or in and among the forms one is present in... As a reflection of that moment. Such is the nature of enlightenment as other beings are reflecting on or in the light of memory(a formless non-existence) or mind and its luminous nature.

The suchness of that occurs when one is not reflecting(wandering) and dwelling in the never ending present or presence of mind the mahabhuta. Realization means one is the light, the lamp, the torch, that enables those beings to recognize or recall what it is they are remembering... When remaining one with light knowing ones form to be light through hearing hears: "Oh yeah I remember that!" Those beings are no longer alone or lost having become one.

Then one can let go or obtain release having forded a passage for those beings as there was recognition in what would otherwise be experienced as darkness or an ignorance of not knowing as one lost in the darkness with skandha and one lost in the darkness of sankhara... Holy life then fulfilled there is nothing left to do. As it is a nibbana with and without remander.

Hence the path from light to dark that all sentient beings are said to move from or too.

Such is the nature of a samyak sambuddha otherwise known as a tathagata.

That washing machine is a strong anchor of when all things are returnable to one what is the one returnable too? No different than the bodhi tree was to Gautama in recognizing home... Or using jhana as steps.

[pudai]

I say: Rupa eye + eye vinnana.
You say Rupa eye IS eye vinnana combined too.

Same as people you are not looking at could be talking about a dog(animal rupa) and what you are looking at is a bird(animal rupa). If the eye and eye consciousness were not one, ear and ear consciousness were not one? Then the eye couldn't descriminate the seeing of a bird instead of a dog; Which the ear and it's consciousness were occupied with hearing... While the eye and its consciousness were filled with bird. (meaning each sense has it's own consciousness as an awareness) If there were only one consciousness or mind for all the senses? Such an experience of seeing consciousness of bird and hearing consciousness about dog could not occur.


You say applying the yoke to the eye or ear... is samadhi. Is this anapanasati taking only eye with the breath? In the seen there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard? One object of salyatana at one time? So strongly connected to eye and seen, no sound or touch or smell steals attention?

Due to dependent origination; skandha is not self and sankhara is impermanence. Mindfulness is only occuring when one is observing long or short, sensitive to body and calming it's fabrications as body in and of itself on in and out breaths.

When I watch and listen to people talk, sometimes both eye and ear consciousness work together. Same object so it's ok?

If mind is silent then it is... otherwise; Back to the yoke as practice would be a good idea. If mind the isn't silent; When listening? Then Mara hasn't been defeated yet and still rules one of the senses giving rise to thoughts. Knowing what those thoughts are will point to where the yoke needs to go as practice... Sounds easy but it isn't as they are beneath the surface otherwise the experience of talking wouldn't be occuring at all... Many times people are like a cat waiting for the other mouse to stop gnawing and then pounce with their point; Missing out on them both being mouses altogether. Experience of the experienced? Both were just making useless noise. Since one doesn't know how to listen and the other can't teach it...

Alternatively, I hear washing machine washing clothes right now while I read and cognize your writing. This is the tar trap monkey scrambling in many directions? Rupa ear and ear vinnana attend washing machine noise, rupa eye and eye vinnana read words, rupa mind and mind vinnana cognize scramble of words and noise?

Your preceptor should be the one that picked your task and if not; Then the abbot and if neither? Sadhu! Sadhu! A hermit living among donkeys.

I don't know Madhyamaka school but it sounds like you are accusing them of believing vinnana is only 1 (all mind) and not 6(5+1 mind).

It's a school based on the skandha of body not being the self and the experience of arupajhana as it's proof of that.
however arupajhana still has thirst even without a body... AKA: The 7th consciousness(crown) infinite wandering in the rounds thirsting for knowledge or basically sitting on one's own head.

Consciousness is where all the life awake and aware exist... the eye in jhana is different than the ear in jhana the nose etc... all of those separate consciousnesses needs to be yoked as they are a bhavayana all in and of themselves...
I think you explain further the point from above, each consciousness of salyatana is different than another (eye consciousness separate from ear consciousness...). When observing this way, must it be jhana or can it be samadhi without jhana or are jhana and samadhi same thing?

The Buddhism is typically taught as there are five senses with the mind being the sixth and consciousness makes one aware or alive.

That is the wrong teaching; the eye all in and of itself as an organ of perception is a wholly full functioning consciousness and a mind of it's own...
I believe we are saying the same thing but my understanding of it is still early.
I say: Rupa eye + eye vinnana.
You say Rupa eye IS eye vinnana combined too.

Nama-rupa? Nama being eye vinnana and rupa being rupa eye?
applying the yoke to the eye known as samadhi tames it like the ox herding pictures. Eyes going one way ears going another way nose going one way is the tar trap of the monkey but all of those consciousnesses are not one otherwise its mind only..
You say applying the yoke to the eye or ear... is samadhi. Is this anapanasati taking only eye with the breath? In the seen there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard? One object of salyatana at one time? So strongly connected to eye and seen, no sound or touch or smell steals attention?

When I watch and listen to people talk, sometimes both eye and ear consciousness work together. Same object so it's ok?

Alternatively, I hear washing machine washing clothes right now while I read and cognize your writing. This is the tar trap monkey scrambling in many directions? Rupa ear and ear vinnana attend washing machine noise, rupa eye and eye vinnana read words, rupa mind and mind vinnana cognize scramble of words and noise?
...or the Madhyamaka school and saying that's ALL there is "Is mind" as the all the fact of samsara and nibbana as elements existing refutes that.
I don't know Madhyamaka school but it sounds like you are accusing them of believing vinnana is only 1 (all mind) and not 6(5+1 mind).
Consciousness is where all the life awake and aware exist... the eye in jhana is different than the ear in jhana the nose etc... all of those separate consciousnesses needs to be yoked as they are a bhavayana all in and of themselves...
I think you explain further the point from above, each consciousness of salyatana is different than another (eye consciousness separate from ear consciousness...). When observing this way, must it be jhana or can it be samadhi without jhana or are jhana and samadhi same thing?


Samadhi is the yoke to feeling in and of itself aka the jhanas and trancending those to non-retuner; The abhihna arise from applying that yoke on the eye and extinguishing the fire in head and heart, same with the ear, same with the nose, same with the tongue, same with sensation(a skandha) meaning rapture and sukha are also not-self and attaining the jhanas means removing worldly fetters and buring up kamma but also adding fetters with the abhinhas and accumilating more kamma... if one samadhis to the ear as feeling in and of itself and experiences jhana then the fetters of earthly kamma break and an arupa fetter of abhihna takes it's place. Same with the other senses and entering jhana with them breaking the earthly fetter and getting bound with an arupa one. Remember Gotama said not using or abusing them was a quicker path to liberation? Using them is a quicker path into slavery as other beings want and can often afford such a dog; Being fresh off the boat and ignorant to what they are already experienced with; Being born in the formless planes.



Fingers are part of the hand, but cut one finger and the other fingers do not feel it.

Feeling in and of itself; Is the root of jhana... Sensitive to rapture, pleasure, mental fabrication and calming mental fabrication. Hand and fingers are not the skandha of body; So why make it appear as if it were? Fabrications is all body in and of itself and feeling in and of itself have in common.

Heat comes in two ways though. Heat of passion and heat of heart release. You speak like someone is supposed to cool both or maybe I'm not understanding.

Cooling both senses and their consciousnesses is what equanimity is as a bhramavihara; Attained on realization of nirodha as a sampatti aka buddhahood a sort of present that never ceases being present and often mistaken as a corpse or made into one due to greed, hate or ignorance.

Noticing yourself like a baby wrapped up in a blanket well fed before noon to stare at the ceiling until night happy you dont have to work happy you can leave any argument or task just like Gautama in the Bhrama suttras and say it is a worldling pursuit is abandoning what has arisen and seeks refuge elsewhere due to suffering arising...
Maybe you can confirm I understand you correctly here. You are stating residing in pleasant abiding from noon to night = worldly indulgence and = aversion from suffering = not the path?

For many isn't that the case and isn't it also the case that pitiable are those beings? Is it weird when people say the Arhat has this fault not abiding in rebirth? How dare you having finished the path mister and can't be reborn anywhere. (As if that isn't the entire point of path?) A typical heaven lasts about the same expanse of time between first and second jhana if thats what people have been toiling for and each plane has it's own 31 planes of existence whether people are ignorant to them or not. Not leaving body in body as contemplation is the dhamma door to realize that as well as the one for realizing nirodha.

When zen says nirvana and samsara are the same they are not joking one is grasping at all the dos and do nots while the already done walk right on through and after awhile it the one noble truth of suffering as all that is existing...
Before enlightenment chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment chop wood, fetch water, smile.

That speaks of nothing; Remains nothing and thats all that was attained worth anything of value in this life or any life you could ever have... It cant be given no matter how hard people try to give it; It cant be stolen... In other words; A hot iron ball that can neither be swallowed or spit out. The water and wood is a nice bonus; But who the bucket and axe belong too? Other than more water and wood... Who knows?


I maybe understood that story under the tree wrong. I thought he identified the childhood memory as a jhana but not enlightnment? Are you saying that memory was enlightenment and he holds the memory to access enlightenment during bad times?

Sutra says: Gotama said that was indeed the path; After trying everything else rupa jhana and rupa jhana alone was sufficient as there is nibbana with and without remainder or two ways liberated meaning arupa jhana or nibbana without remainder; Both end in nirodha as the middle way no matter which plane you start in? Impermanence is the law in both.

Do you speak here about imperturbability of eye consciousness which allows other 5 consciousness freedom? For example, having pervasive akusala thought one can yoke to the eye, and mind is freed of the akusala thought? Then one can unyoke the eye and return to equal 6 senses?

It means that at least one of those seven consciousnesses runs off to re-incarnate and is dependently arisen and impermanent like all else; If not yoked to unbinding from its thirsts... Ear and ear consciousness doesn't care if she's pretty according to the eye and it's consciousness when she doesn't say or sound what is pleasing to it... does it?

Honestly if I were Gautama? I'd yoke my mind to cow dung instead of all the way back to his ignorance under that tree...
Why not the breath? Why cow dung?
Cao-Dung it's the first step of Buddhism out of India into China as proper path lineage or transmission up to present day. Tang(someone's awakening sound during the making of swords) no lineage or wealth(pratyekka) dhamma path of it went to Mongolia and Tibet and thats where Muslims followed/went then the Germans muddy muddy muddy path. Twinkling bells lead to the caves... as consciousness drifts like the snow; As a hearer about to parinibbana from frostbite needing a path? Ear yoked to women and their possible pleasure to you... Then youre on your way to making cow dung as a rebirth among those. :p Unbroken path is the real wealth; For some thats just their uncle or guru for others; It's only Buddha, so if eye has defeated its mara Buddha, If ear has defeated its mara Buddha, if nose has defeated its mara Buddha, if tongue has defeated it's mara, Buddha if tactile sensation has defeated rupa; then arupa if tactile sensation has defeated arupa then rupa... Time then for kasina objects as the earth touch as a witness is the arupa to rupa using the earth element as a "door".


I hope my interpretations and questions are as path-focused as your insights have been. I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion.

No worries sorry it took so long to respond to your direct questions too many realities occurring at once; Is the problem with compassion to all of the many beings each individuals reality is real even the Arhats.

[Dhammapardon]

Not knowing is often taken as emptiness with a thirst to be full or a way to dispel ignorance; When it is ignorance that is empty accidentally creating a fullness due to that emptiness.

Sadhu

The suchness of that occurs when one is not reflecting(wandering) and dwelling in the never ending present or presence of mind the mahabhuta. Realization means one is the light, the lamp, the torch, that enables those beings to recognize or recall what it is they are remembering... When remaining one with light knowing ones form to be light through hearing hears: "Oh yeah I remember that!" Those beings are no longer alone or lost having become one.

Then one can let go or obtain release having forded a passage for those beings as there was recognition in what would otherwise be experienced as darkness or an ignorance of not knowing as one lost in the darkness with skandha and one lost in the darkness of sankhara... Holy life then fulfilled there is nothing left to do. As it is a nibbana with and without remander.

I think here is one great benefit of the Sangha.

Same as people you are not looking at could be talking about a dog(animal rupa) and what you are looking at is a bird(animal rupa). If the eye and eye consciousness were not one, ear and ear consciousness were not one? Then the eye couldn't descriminate the seeing of a bird instead of a dog; Which the ear and it's consciousness were occupied with hearing... While the eye and its consciousness were filled with bird. (meaning each sense has it's own consciousness as an awareness) If there were only one consciousness or mind for all the senses? Such an experience of seeing consciousness of bird and hearing consciousness about dog could not occur.

This makes sense. Each of the 6 consciousness function independently and are also connected as part of a larger hub (citta?) that processes the experiences further. This way you can see a dog and hear about a bird and bring to mind either a bird while looking at a dog or dog while hearing about a bird. Maybe citta then adds feelings of liking or disliking and inclines volition toward one or the other.

Is this where likings and dislikings can get the upper hand? Untamed citta lets the 6 vinnana run wild?

When I watch and listen to people talk, sometimes both eye and ear consciousness work together. Same object so it's ok?

If mind is silent then it is... otherwise; Back to the yoke as practice would be a good idea. If mind the isn't silent; When listening? Then Mara hasn't been defeated yet and still rules one of the senses giving rise to thoughts. Knowing what those thoughts are will point to where the yoke needs to go as practice... Sounds easy but it isn't as they are beneath the surface otherwise the experience of talking wouldn't be occuring at all... Many times people are like a cat waiting for the other mouse to stop gnawing and then pounce with their point; Missing out on them both being mouses altogether. Experience of the experienced? Both were just making useless noise. Since one doesn't know how to listen and the other can't teach it...

Ah.. when sensitive to the body and with calmed fabrications, observing the feelings and the thoughts continuously in this moment reveals the arising of a feeling or thought which provides opportunity to observe where it came from, where it wants to go, and what to do with it.

It's a school based on the skandha of body not being the self and the experience of arupajhana as it's proof of that.
however arupajhana still has thirst even without a body... AKA: The 7th consciousness(crown) infinite wandering in the rounds thirsting for knowledge or basically sitting on one's own head.

I'm not familiar with the term 7th consciousness. Would this be like citta that encompasses 6 individual consciousnesses and includes things like sankhara?

Right now I'm a bit tangled. Intellectually I understand 5 physical consciousness individually functioning and also linked to mind consciousness(6th). All 6 consciousness function within citta. Does sankhara come from citta, from mind consciousness, or from each individual 6 consciousness? Or maybe from all?

I don't see eye consciousness grasping, maybe not even grasping in mind consciousness, but citta with thoughts and emotions and volitions untamed can grasp. Maybe it's not fundamental to the understanding because wherever grasping is, it's to be let go.

..attaining the jhanas means removing worldly fetters and buring up kamma but also adding fetters with the abhinhas and accumilating more kamma... if one samadhis to the ear as feeling in and of itself and experiences jhana then the fetters of earthly kamma break and an arupa fetter of abhihna takes it's place. Same with the other senses and entering jhana with them breaking the earthly fetter and getting bound with an arupa one. Remember Gotama said not using or abusing them was a quicker path to liberation? Using them is a quicker path into slavery as other beings want and can often afford such a dog; Being fresh off the boat and ignorant to what they are already experienced with; Being born in the formless planes.

The experience of jhana transforms fetters into arupa fetters? This point isn't clear to me yet. Is this like sense desires as a bundle are a lower fetter. When yoked individually with Samadhi, become fetters of fine-material for the 5 physical consciousnesses and fetters of immaterial for the mind consciousness?

Cooling both senses and their consciousnesses is what equanimity is as a bhramavihara; Attained on realization of nirodha as a sampatti aka buddhahood a sort of present that never ceases being present and often mistaken as a corpse or made into one due to greed, hate or ignorance.

Maybe I misidentify feeling of joy and rapture as a heat or warmth. Could be a heat when the joy and rapture are coveted and desired for. A clarifying cooling when left undisturbed by the mind's volitions.

For many isn't that the case and isn't it also the case that pitiable are those beings? Is it weird when people say the Arhat has this fault not abiding in rebirth? How dare you having finished the path mister and can't be reborn anywhere. (As if that isn't the entire point of path?) A typical heaven lasts about the same expanse of time between first and second jhana if thats what people have been toiling for and each plane has it's own 31 planes of existence whether people are ignorant to them or not. Not leaving body in body as contemplation is the dhamma door to realize that as well as the one for realizing nirodha.

Maybe the same as those who in the suttas witnessed iddhi powers and attribute it to some trinket or witch or something. With only intellectual understanding of Dhamma and doubting experiences of true Dhamma there can be a significant hinderance to path progress. Holding strongly to views of how it should or shouldn't be when experience is still expanding creates nearly invisible blockages because the blockages are in the held views which have already passed the "guard". The guard needs to make everything go through again and search for any attachments. Especially to intellectually held views. Those can be a shaded lens through which a being experiences.

When zen says nirvana and samsara are the same they are not joking one is grasping at all the dos and do nots while the already done walk right on through and after awhile it the one noble truth of suffering as all that is existing...
Before enlightenment chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment chop wood, fetch water, smile.

That speaks of nothing; Remains nothing and thats all that was attained worth anything of value in this life or any life you could ever have... It cant be given no matter how hard people try to give it; It cant be stolen... In other words; A hot iron ball that can neither be swallowed or spit out. The water and wood is a nice bonus; But who the bucket and axe belong too? Other than more water and wood... Who knows?

If I understand right, it can be given. That's why Buddha taught and we have so many great suttas and much commentary and teachers today. I hear you better than I hear some others and that is a result of you giving and it being give-able. It's only the medicine though, the hot iron ball is still each their own to apply the medicine. Unless it is the iron ball which can't be given, but even then I think it can be shared through acting out worldly volitions such as easing another's burden or worsening their burden. No safety yet for those strongly influenced by the second dart nor for those intentionally sending darts to others.

It means that at least one of those seven consciousnesses runs off to re-incarnate and is dependently arisen and impermanent like all else; If not yoked to unbinding from its thirsts... Ear and ear consciousness doesn't care if she's pretty according to the eye and it's consciousness when she doesn't say or sound what is pleasing to it... does it?

7th consciousness is a new concept to me. The eye-consciousness runs away with the sight of the pretty girl to be re-incarnated if there is no samadhi yoking of eye-consciousness which includes joy and rapture of unbinding?

Cao-Dung it's the first step of Buddhism out of India into China as proper path lineage or transmission up to present day. Tang(someone's awakening sound during the making of swords) no lineage or wealth(pratyekka) dhamma path of it went to Mongolia and Tibet and thats where Muslims followed/went then the Germans muddy muddy muddy path. Twinkling bells lead to the caves... as consciousness drifts like the snow; As a hearer about to parinibbana from frostbite needing a path? Ear yoked to women and their possible pleasure to you... Then youre on your way to making cow dung as a rebirth among those. :p

Not entirely sure if I understand you right here but it sounds like a warning about distraction. Distraction of rights and rituals, distraction of sense pleasures, even distraction due to anxiousness of needing a path to present itself.

No worries sorry it took so long to respond to your direct questions too many realities occurring at once; Is the problem with compassion to all of the many beings each individuals reality is real even the Arhats.

In what way are realities traveled?
Your writing style is very dense and compact with understandings that bring up a lot of questions. Taking it segment by segment helps test it out better so I'm grateful you'll indulge the questioning style.

Thanks again for the illuminations and apologies if my directed questioning methods are not to your preference.

Metta

[pudai]

Not knowing is often taken as emptiness with a thirst to be full or a way to dispel ignorance; When it is ignorance that is empty accidentally creating a fullness due to that emptiness.

Sadhu

The suchness of that occurs when one is not reflecting(wandering) and dwelling in the never ending present or presence of mind the mahabhuta. Realization means one is the light, the lamp, the torch, that enables those beings to recognize or recall what it is they are remembering... When remaining one with light knowing ones form to be light through hearing hears: "Oh yeah I remember that!" Those beings are no longer alone or lost having become one.

Then one can let go or obtain release having forded a passage for those beings as there was recognition in what would otherwise be experienced as darkness or an ignorance of not knowing as one lost in the darkness with skandha and one lost in the darkness of sankhara... Holy life then fulfilled there is nothing left to do. As it is a nibbana with and without remander.

I think here is one great benefit of the Sangha.

Same as people you are not looking at could be talking about a dog(animal rupa) and what you are looking at is a bird(animal rupa). If the eye and eye consciousness were not one, ear and ear consciousness were not one? Then the eye couldn't descriminate the seeing of a bird instead of a dog; Which the ear and it's consciousness were occupied with hearing... While the eye and its consciousness were filled with bird. (meaning each sense has it's own consciousness as an awareness) If there were only one consciousness or mind for all the senses? Such an experience of seeing consciousness of bird and hearing consciousness about dog could not occur.

This makes sense. Each of the 6 consciousness function independently and are also connected as part of a larger hub (citta?) that processes the experiences further. This way you can see a dog and hear about a bird and bring to mind either a bird while looking at a dog or dog while hearing about a bird. Maybe citta then adds feelings of liking or disliking and inclines volition toward one or the other.

Is this where likings and dislikings can get the upper hand? Untamed citta lets the 6 vinnana run wild?

When I watch and listen to people talk, sometimes both eye and ear consciousness work together. Same object so it's ok?

If mind is silent then it is... otherwise; Back to the yoke as practice would be a good idea. If mind the isn't silent; When listening? Then Mara hasn't been defeated yet and still rules one of the senses giving rise to thoughts. Knowing what those thoughts are will point to where the yoke needs to go as practice... Sounds easy but it isn't as they are beneath the surface otherwise the experience of talking wouldn't be occuring at all... Many times people are like a cat waiting for the other mouse to stop gnawing and then pounce with their point; Missing out on them both being mouses altogether. Experience of the experienced? Both were just making useless noise. Since one doesn't know how to listen and the other can't teach it...

Ah.. when sensitive to the body and with calmed fabrications, observing the feelings and the thoughts continuously in this moment reveals the arising of a feeling or thought which provides opportunity to observe where it came from, where it wants to go, and what to do with it.

It's a school based on the skandha of body not being the self and the experience of arupajhana as it's proof of that.
however arupajhana still has thirst even without a body... AKA: The 7th consciousness(crown) infinite wandering in the rounds thirsting for knowledge or basically sitting on one's own head.

I'm not familiar with the term 7th consciousness. Would this be like citta that encompasses 6 individual consciousnesses and includes things like sankhara?

Right now I'm a bit tangled. Intellectually I understand 5 physical consciousness individually functioning and also linked to mind consciousness(6th). All 6 consciousness function within citta. Does sankhara come from citta, from mind consciousness, or from each individual 6 consciousness? Or maybe from all?

I don't see eye consciousness grasping, maybe not even grasping in mind consciousness, but citta with thoughts and emotions and volitions untamed can grasp. Maybe it's not fundamental to the understanding because wherever grasping is, it's to be let go.

..attaining the jhanas means removing worldly fetters and buring up kamma but also adding fetters with the abhinhas and accumilating more kamma... if one samadhis to the ear as feeling in and of itself and experiences jhana then the fetters of earthly kamma break and an arupa fetter of abhihna takes it's place. Same with the other senses and entering jhana with them breaking the earthly fetter and getting bound with an arupa one. Remember Gotama said not using or abusing them was a quicker path to liberation? Using them is a quicker path into slavery as other beings want and can often afford such a dog; Being fresh off the boat and ignorant to what they are already experienced with; Being born in the formless planes.

The experience of jhana transforms fetters into arupa fetters? This point isn't clear to me yet. Is this like sense desires as a bundle are a lower fetter. When yoked individually with Samadhi, become fetters of fine-material for the 5 physical consciousnesses and fetters of immaterial for the mind consciousness?

Cooling both senses and their consciousnesses is what equanimity is as a bhramavihara; Attained on realization of nirodha as a sampatti aka buddhahood a sort of present that never ceases being present and often mistaken as a corpse or made into one due to greed, hate or ignorance.

Maybe I misidentify feeling of joy and rapture as a heat or warmth. Could be a heat when the joy and rapture are coveted and desired for. A clarifying cooling when left undisturbed by the mind's volitions.

For many isn't that the case and isn't it also the case that pitiable are those beings? Is it weird when people say the Arhat has this fault not abiding in rebirth? How dare you having finished the path mister and can't be reborn anywhere. (As if that isn't the entire point of path?) A typical heaven lasts about the same expanse of time between first and second jhana if thats what people have been toiling for and each plane has it's own 31 planes of existence whether people are ignorant to them or not. Not leaving body in body as contemplation is the dhamma door to realize that as well as the one for realizing nirodha.

Maybe the same as those who in the suttas witnessed iddhi powers and attribute it to some trinket or witch or something. With only intellectual understanding of Dhamma and doubting experiences of true Dhamma there can be a significant hinderance to path progress. Holding strongly to views of how it should or shouldn't be when experience is still expanding creates nearly invisible blockages because the blockages are in the held views which have already passed the "guard". The guard needs to make everything go through again and search for any attachments. Especially to intellectually held views. Those can be a shaded lens through which a being experiences.

When zen says nirvana and samsara are the same they are not joking one is grasping at all the dos and do nots while the already done walk right on through and after awhile it the one noble truth of suffering as all that is existing...
Before enlightenment chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment chop wood, fetch water, smile.

That speaks of nothing; Remains nothing and thats all that was attained worth anything of value in this life or any life you could ever have... It cant be given no matter how hard people try to give it; It cant be stolen... In other words; A hot iron ball that can neither be swallowed or spit out. The water and wood is a nice bonus; But who the bucket and axe belong too? Other than more water and wood... Who knows?

If I understand right, it can be given. That's why Buddha taught and we have so many great suttas and much commentary and teachers today. I hear you better than I hear some others and that is a result of you giving and it being give-able. It's only the medicine though, the hot iron ball is still each their own to apply the medicine. Unless it is the iron ball which can't be given, but even then I think it can be shared through acting out worldly volitions such as easing another's burden or worsening their burden. No safety yet for those strongly influenced by the second dart nor for those intentionally sending darts to others.

It means that at least one of those seven consciousnesses runs off to re-incarnate and is dependently arisen and impermanent like all else; If not yoked to unbinding from its thirsts... Ear and ear consciousness doesn't care if she's pretty according to the eye and it's consciousness when she doesn't say or sound what is pleasing to it... does it?

7th consciousness is a new concept to me. The eye-consciousness runs away with the sight of the pretty girl to be re-incarnated if there is no samadhi yoking of eye-consciousness which includes joy and rapture of unbinding?

Cao-Dung it's the first step of Buddhism out of India into China as proper path lineage or transmission up to present day. Tang(someone's awakening sound during the making of swords) no lineage or wealth(pratyekka) dhamma path of it went to Mongolia and Tibet and thats where Muslims followed/went then the Germans muddy muddy muddy path. Twinkling bells lead to the caves... as consciousness drifts like the snow; As a hearer about to parinibbana from frostbite needing a path? Ear yoked to women and their possible pleasure to you... Then youre on your way to making cow dung as a rebirth among those. :p

Not entirely sure if I understand you right here but it sounds like a warning about distraction. Distraction of rights and rituals, distraction of sense pleasures, even distraction due to anxiousness of needing a path to present itself.

No worries sorry it took so long to respond to your direct questions too many realities occurring at once; Is the problem with compassion to all of the many beings each individuals reality is real even the Arhats.

In what way are realities traveled?
Your writing style is very dense and compact with understandings that bring up a lot of questions. Taking it segment by segment helps test it out better so I'm grateful you'll indulge the questioning style.

Thanks again for the illuminations and apologies if my directed questioning methods are not to your preference.

Metta

Here's an example of mind only and iddhi it requires not only having fully let go; But fearlessness. While riding in a car with someone they had their mind in the past and stopped where their mother in law liked to stop when in the car with her no matter what to get cigarettes and a hotdog.

The reality is yes indeed that place existed but was torn down paved over from two lane into four lanes thirty some years later... the hot dogs as real as ever as a smell and yet car after car zooming by in ignorance and unknowing slamming into others or there as we were not new to the area... needless to mention that place no longer exists and yet it does.

So when someone wonders where their pain is coming from? It is an ignorance of knowing and not knowing.

That dog and bird does not depend on you as an arising... no more than you may depend on a washing machine for clean robes or clothes.

So say you went to your hometown after being gone twenty years youd be a famous saint only because change did not occur at all in your mind there same as hotdog stand cigarette place still existing. The Mara or evil one as Gautama would see it would take you around or tell you what is new when those old people in various states of living death and decay have impermanence as long as you do not fill in twenty years of grave.

It is no magic trick and it is the basis for the belief in ghosts. What irks a Cambodian abbot is a heruka remembers me from when thailand was a sandbar and took me there where he can walk on water remembering where it was land then and hadnt been back since... so it isnt a test of faith it is a test of fearlessness.

However as Lord Gautama stated: take care of your body his path is already forded. As in the time he was away everything was the same but his family and kinsmen were dead and he didnt know it until the common thing of maggots and rice entering his bowl there upon he wished that golden bowl given to him by deva into heaven and dropped that one on the ground realizing impermanence that his father and kinsmen were dead after teaching the those three aesthetics... and not knowing the story of what had happened since being gone and vowed not to gossip as a buddha path.

So when people followed him; the format would be thus I have heard while staying in: Whatever place at whatever time.... meaning they could go back and he'd preserve the memory of how it was in his memory before whatever it was changed it into a place of drought or ruin.

So nothing special or magical about it... waving off those that want to change what isn't broken or ruined isn't evil. It's what gets termed a "Nat" in Thailand.

Language isn't a barrier unless someone is talking directly to you and that thing called thinking is occurring... some may wish it was otherwise why is that naked man squatting in the tree squawking like a bird? Their mind knows how to listen is the easiest answer but not let go is the hardest way to say just ignore it.

That is what is meant by the "deathless"