Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

ok, one is watching football and yells at players they being so noob. It is possible to zone out of this and become conscious. Its possible to do it on body level, making the heart cold.
Artist when they see something funny in the audience, have their own methods, like biting the lip or something to stop the desire to giggle.
Is that what you speaking about?

Auto: You have reverted to the "Spouting nonsense mode" Watching football?, desire to giggle
Let me see what else you have to say. If you are here to entertain, you have failed
miserably.

[Pulsar]

Auto wrote

Pulsar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:43 am
Also the blocking of rupa(form) or contact(phassa) sounds wrong

To who? not to me.
I remember i can block the seminal outflow. So, yes perhaps you are right on some respects. Sorry.

This post is about Origination of dukkha, not about seminal outflow. Physical body is not a factor in Nama rupa of Dependent origination. If Niddesa says so, Pl initiate your own thread and discuss it with Abhidhamma lovers. Is there not a forum dedicated to Abhidhamma?
Now I remember why I blocked you a long time ago.
You are acting like a 3rd grader. From now on I shall pay no attention to your posts.

[auto]

removing how?

Sorry block.
Pulsar tries to block the mental image from arising what the craving mind otherwise brings forth. Tho, the timeline is yet unclear for me.

Sadat wrote on another thread ...when I mentioned Samudaya Sutta. I brought the discussion here, since anything to do with SN 47.42, I like to do it here.

Pulsar. Would you be able to provide a simple example of how SN 47.42 is implemented in practice?

I can give you a simple example, provided you have a profound understanding of "How Suffering originates"
Imagine you are in a romantic relationship, in such a case, you tend to think of the other person when she/he is not with you. Right?
Everytime you think of the person your craving mind (full of asava or thirst) brings forth a picture of the person.
..
Your thirst is intense. Your thirsting mind simultaneously identifies the image with love, longing etc. Rupa of hers gets identified based on the nimittas your underlying tendency has marked this image.

Craving mind simultaneously gives rise and also identifies the rupa with love and longing(which you have towards that image or actual physical object?) and by doing that it produces new consciousness

This is all mental, the person is not with you at the moment. With that naming or identification of what arose (in the visual consciousness, the rupa) a new consciousness is created.
If you are practicing SN 47.42 you are good at blocking the rupa emerging, so there is no need for naming (Nama-rupa).

Seems that rupa-what-got-named(namarupa) is that new consciousness.

Now what caused the arising of that rupa that got named? Can you give me an answer? The answer is in the first verse of SN 47.42. I will give you a hint, it has to do with feeding, or how consciousness feeds.

So, based on Pulsar, if you think of an apple. Then there arise mental image of it with its nimittas which also gets named(identified) simultaneously accordingly with the underlying tendencies you personally have towards that apple. If you are fond of red apples, then you see red apple or red on an apple. But if someone else imagine apple, it can be green instead due that person tendencies are different.

It seem that the Pulsar tries to block image which is based on likes and dislikes. Don't know exactly, he refuses to communicate, can't ask either.

[confusedlayman]

end of existing thought and no arising of new thought

you can’t end thought

u can.. or else escape from thought is not possible. 2nd jhana can end thought... absoption in to nibbana can end thought i think

[Pulsar]

Some people bring Buddha's teaching of Dependent Origination to the level of apples and red tomatoes.
How low can one bring the profound teachings of the Buddha? That is a new record? One can try harder, to bring Buddha down to their level.

• Nimitta in the context of Dependent Origination?

it must be very difficult for the ordinary person to comprehend or grasp, or get up to that level,

• because that understanding also requires an understanding of underlying tendencies, and their impact on nimitta and newly rising consciousness.

Yet we all can try harder over time, without shooting the messenger.
With compassion

[auto]

So from the perspective of this sutta, if you practice it accordingly, in the times of your meditation, you are not obsessing over that person. There is no need to sit cross legged to meditate so. You can do it anytime of the day, discipline your mind, so that her/his rupa does not appear in your mind. If you succeed like this, you don't have to worry about further feelings arising due to the person. Once contact is blocked no related feeling arises.
The suffering ceases at least during that meditation.

namarupa is nati
derived from these two quotes,

When consciousness is established and grows, there is an inclination.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nati hoti.

When consciousness is established, name and form are conceived.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.

PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Nati，（f．） [Sk．nati of nam] bending，bent，inclination S．II，67； IV，59； M．I，115．（Page 345）

Both citta and cetasikas are aware of the senses.They are always
bent towards the senses in order to pick up the senses, and thus
they are collectively called ‘Nàma’.

So, whatever the namarupa consists of is bent towards the senses. This bending is a condition for the six sense fields,

Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields.
Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ;

‘Then does the sight issue, as it were, a command to thought, saying: “Do you spring up there where I have? or does thought issue command to sight, saying: Where you spring up there will I.”’

‘It is not so, great king. There is no intercourse between the one and the other.’

‘Then how is it, Sir, that thought arises wherever sight does?’

‘Because of there being a sloping down, and because of there being a door, and because of there being a habit, and because of there being an association.’

illustration,

‘How is that? Give me an illustration of mind arising where sight arises because of there being a sloping down.’

‘Now what do you think, great king? When it rains, where will the water go to?’
‘It will follow the slope of the ground.’

‘And if it were to rain again, where would the water go to?’

‘It would go the same way as the first water had gone.’

I think it is fair of abhidhamma to say that the man is made up of namarupa.
Your proclivities how you act towards what you see are the namarupa. Consciousness what gets established is likely the rebirth-linking one.

Abhidhamma is a notch deeper, since you can't get rid of the sloping by simply avoiding the sight(rupa).

[Pulsar]

Language of Abhidhamma and language of the Buddha are different.
On this thread posted on the

• Early Buddhist Forum, OP chooses to stick to the language of the Buddha.

If any one chooses to do otherwise, they may move their chosen comments to the Abhidhamma Forum. OP wishes not to engage with the teachings of Abhidhamma.
With kindness

[auto]

..

You mentioned apples, so i take this post is directed at me. Your post sounds like you didn't get that i merely tried to reiterate what you have said. When you saying 'some people', you mean yourself then?

[auto]

Language of Abhidhamma and language of the Buddha are different.
On this thread posted on the

• Early Buddhist Forum, OP chooses to stick to the language of the Buddha.

If any one chooses to do otherwise, they may move their chosen comments to the Abhidhamma Forum.

you can't simply look what is written? idea should be devoid of whether it is abhidhamma language or some else.

OP wishes not to engage with the teachings of Abhidhamma.
With kindness

i think you mad.

[Pulsar]

Last comment ends with

"i think you mad"

It is just a thought, it too will come to pass.

[Pulsar]

Sadat wrote

Do you have any posts where you explain how to practice proper meditation with practical instruction?

When you say practical instructions, what do you mean? Do you mean "How to use Anapanasati to expedite the first step in the Sutta on the Origination of Suffering?
In sutta on the Lesser Void, Buddha has said the point of the practice is gaining the ability to slip into the Void at a moment's notice. When I am not distracted I can do this at times.
I combine the teachings of MN 121, SN 12.63, and Sutta on origination. There are several others that have helped me. With time I can post some.
I have translated the Chinese sutta of MN 121 for my own use. Analayo has translated this for the public. I find Analayo's translation beneficial, but they miss something. Something of the original spirit of the Buddha.
I am under the impression he is somewhat influenced by Vibajjavadin abhidhamma, at least in his older translations.
Recently he has claimed that his eyes have been opened by his studies on Chinese agama suttas. How much I don't know. So I try to translate the critical passages for myself.
You wrote

This would really help me better understand your approach to the the teachings in Pali. I checked many of your old posts, but there is quite a few of them

My approach has come from a firm understanding of the above suttas. Before that I spent years working with Nidana, Salayatana, Khanda and Dhatu Samyutta.

• The last was tremendously helpful in getting a hang of how DO works.

Reading Erich Frauwallner's publications have helped me like nothing else. My approach is moulded by reading of various publications on "How Buddhist thinking evolved over the years" If you can get hold of some material on the Pudgalavadins, it is a must at he beginning of your education.
It is essential to imbibe the spirit of Buddha which can be found in the Pudgalavadins, Samyutta Nikaya/Samyukta agama etc. I think I already mentioned this to you. See whether you get the theory first, before you contemplate meditation as such. I mean real Buddhist meditation is a lifestyle, meaning it should be in everything you think, say, and do.
More with time.
Wishing you the Best

[Pulsar]

Once I thought when a friend wrote

Pulsar wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:33 am
OP wishes not to engage with the teachings of Abhidhamma.
With kindness
i think you mad.

on second thought, it gives me an insight into how over the years in some traditions, Buddha Dhamma became obscure, and Abhidhamma took over.
Perhaps the people who understood rupa of Nama-rupa of Dependent Origination as a mental event, and not a material matter, (as Buddha taught it) came to be treated as mad-men. Did those who understood stop being outspoken?

• Were they marginalized?

Right now I am reading

"Buddhism:The religion of Analysis"

by Jacobson, Nolan Pliny
It reads on p 81

It is also unfortunate that Buddha's insight of unconscious motivation (presented in the Pali canon as Underlying tendency) has been

• emasculated

in the tradition by an obvious interest in complex classifications ....

If anyone is interested I can copy the entire section.
But the word Emasculated jumped out at me, a pretty strong word.
Author of "Buddhism: The religion of Analysis"? does Auto consider him mad too?
With love

[auto]

..

you asking me to react on the word emasculated when someone claims abhidhamma is made by individuals who are emasculated? who claims that must be retarded, obviously.
Are you reading materials who are anti-commentarial? you can rate them all retarded, you don't need ask my opinion twice.

[Pulsar]

auto wrote

you asking me to react on the word emasculated when someone claimsyou asking me to react on the word emasculated when someone claims abhidhamma is made by individuals who are emasculated?

It appears you do not understand English either. Where in my comment does it say

abhidhamma is made by individuals who are emasculated?

You not only have an inferior understanding of Buddha Dhamma, your understanding of English is inferior too.
With a great deal of compassion. May your language abilities improve!

[auto]

auto wrote

you asking me to react on the word emasculated when someone claimsyou asking me to react on the word emasculated when someone claims abhidhamma is made by individuals who are emasculated?

It appears you do not understand English either. Where in my comment does it say

abhidhamma is made by individuals who are emasculated?

You not only have an inferior understanding of Buddha Dhamma, your understanding of English is inferior too.
With a great deal of compassion. May your language abilities improve!

i can see the word emasculated jump at you.

what i did say wrong tho. Do you mean that the anusaya is made weaker in people who study complex things?