assuming you meditate and pain start to raise, how meditator should react to physical pain?
some teachers recommend acknowledging the presence of pain, but not become overly fixated on it or allow it to distract from the primary object of meditation.
others say direct attention toward the physical sensations of the pain, observing them and making them the object of meditation
what is your side of this argument? and why?
How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
Instead of giving rise to aversion instead give rise to loving-kindness. When you do that the pain will cease to bother you and will fade into the background. It’s just a condition.Eli996 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:08 pm assuming you meditate and pain start to raise, how meditator should react to physical pain?
some teachers recommend acknowledging the presence of pain, but not become overly fixated on it or allow it to distract from the primary object of meditation.
others say direct attention toward the physical sensations of the pain, observing them and making them the object of meditation
what is your side of this argument? and why?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
This talk by Ajahn viradhammo might help I haven't watched it in a while but he talks about noticing the place in you that is not affected.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
Take a smart middle ground position. Is the pain a kind of sharp piercing one or kinda dull bearable one? If it's the former, one should not ignore it for it could mean one's doing something wrong and the body is trying to send a signal for one to correct it, whether the posture is wrong, breathing is wrong, or overly tensed/exerted pressure on the lower body, etc. Ignoring those could mean more severe health issues down the road.Eli996 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:08 pm assuming you meditate and pain start to raise, how meditator should react to physical pain?
some teachers recommend acknowledging the presence of pain, but not become overly fixated on it or allow it to distract from the primary object of meditation.
others say direct attention toward the physical sensations of the pain, observing them and making them the object of meditation
what is your side of this argument? and why?
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Bhikkhu Pesala
- Posts: 4647
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
In Vipassanā Meditation Guidelines, Chanmyay Sayādaw said:Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:“How, monks, does a monk dwell contemplating feelings? Here, monk, a monk, when feeling a pleasant feeling he knows, ‘I feel a pleasant feeling.’ When feeling a painful feeling he knows, ‘I feel a painful feeling.’ When feeling a neutral feeling he knows, ‘I feel a neutral feeling.’ When feeling a pleasant sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a pleasant sensual feeling.’ When feeling a pleasant non-sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a pleasant non-sensual feeling.’ When feeling an unpleasant sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel an unpleasant sensual feeling.’ When feeling an unpleasant non-sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel an unpleasant non-sensual feeling.’ When feeling a neutral sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a neutral sensual feeling.’ When feeling a neutral non-sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a neutral non-sensual feeling.’”
- Pain is the friend of the meditator. Do not evade it. It can lead you to nibbāna.
- Pain does not have to inform you of its coming. It may not disappear, but if it does, you may cry over it, for your friend has gone away.
- Pain is observed not to make it go away, but to realise its true nature.
- Pain is the key to the door of nibbāna.
- When concentration is good, pain is not a problem. It is a natural process. If you observe it attentively, the mind will be absorbed in it, and discover its true nature.
- When pain comes, note it directly. Ignore it only if it becomes overpoweringly persistent. It can be overcome by deep concentration brought about by continuous mindfulness.
- If intense pain arises during walking meditation, stop occasionally and take note of it.
- Be patient with anything and everything that stimulates your mind.
- Patience leads to nibbāna— impatience leads to hell.
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Acknowledge that ‘at the moment the pain phenomenon has arisen in this mind body phenomenon’. Then, with a relaxed mind, continue to train to maintain the continuous detached awareness of the present moment. For example ‘there is inhaling, exhaling’ as it is, in the present moment. Moment by moment.
In this way cultivate, develop, an equanimous relationship to all pleasant, unpleasant and neutral processes.
As Goenkaji always used to say, echoing his teacher,( and so on), : ‘continuity of practice is the secret of success’
In this way cultivate, develop, an equanimous relationship to all pleasant, unpleasant and neutral processes.
As Goenkaji always used to say, echoing his teacher,( and so on), : ‘continuity of practice is the secret of success’
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
Burmese meditation style mind over body approaches to handling pain causes unnecessary injuries in the long term (years, decades).
Yes, it can build up mental toughness, but you still need a sufficiently healthy physical body structure to fully develop all four jhānas.
Without a healthy enough body, you'll have energy blockages that jam up your jhana battery and it won't fully charge, and worse, for many people they'll develop not only physical problems but mental problems, psychosis as well.
The best way is to develop a daily healthy balanced regimen of cardiovascular excercises, gentle, slow jogging or jump roping for example, lots of dynamic and proportionally less static stretching only when body is heated up, some calisthenics, to break up your sitting meditation and give your knees, legs a chance to heal and recuperate.
See AN 3.16. The Buddha says alternate between walking and sitting meditation. No times (duration of session) are suggested, but use trial and error, common sense, and listen to your body.
I've seen tons of pa auk and mahasi style meditators with serious knee and leg problems. forcing yourself to sit 2 or 3 hours through leg pain, results in damaged nerves. I see those meditators stumbling and tripping for no reason.
And I experienced the same damage. Some deadened nerves in the legs, not to the point where I lost my balance and tripped all the time like them, but I could see it was headed in that direction.
And once the nerves start dying, you feel less pain and then you can sit even longer sessions, until you get hit with a more serious physical health problem from the compound damage over years.
I couldn't sit cross leg for over a year while I was recovering from the damage of that, and I've seen many of the same problems in Pa Auk and Mahasis style meditators who do long sits. Even the "jhāna" (Vism. redefined jhāna) masters.
Be smart, learn to exercise and stretch regularly every day, in between sits.
Some specific exercise to help sitting meditators here:
https://lucid24.org/misc/qigor/index.html
especially see the shake and bake, and full lotus turtle sections.
-frank
Yes, it can build up mental toughness, but you still need a sufficiently healthy physical body structure to fully develop all four jhānas.
Without a healthy enough body, you'll have energy blockages that jam up your jhana battery and it won't fully charge, and worse, for many people they'll develop not only physical problems but mental problems, psychosis as well.
The best way is to develop a daily healthy balanced regimen of cardiovascular excercises, gentle, slow jogging or jump roping for example, lots of dynamic and proportionally less static stretching only when body is heated up, some calisthenics, to break up your sitting meditation and give your knees, legs a chance to heal and recuperate.
See AN 3.16. The Buddha says alternate between walking and sitting meditation. No times (duration of session) are suggested, but use trial and error, common sense, and listen to your body.
I've seen tons of pa auk and mahasi style meditators with serious knee and leg problems. forcing yourself to sit 2 or 3 hours through leg pain, results in damaged nerves. I see those meditators stumbling and tripping for no reason.
And I experienced the same damage. Some deadened nerves in the legs, not to the point where I lost my balance and tripped all the time like them, but I could see it was headed in that direction.
And once the nerves start dying, you feel less pain and then you can sit even longer sessions, until you get hit with a more serious physical health problem from the compound damage over years.
I couldn't sit cross leg for over a year while I was recovering from the damage of that, and I've seen many of the same problems in Pa Auk and Mahasis style meditators who do long sits. Even the "jhāna" (Vism. redefined jhāna) masters.
Be smart, learn to exercise and stretch regularly every day, in between sits.
Some specific exercise to help sitting meditators here:
https://lucid24.org/misc/qigor/index.html
especially see the shake and bake, and full lotus turtle sections.
-frank
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:32 pmIn Vipassanā Meditation Guidelines, Chanmyay Sayādaw said:Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:“How, monks, does a monk dwell contemplating feelings? Here, monk, a monk, when feeling a pleasant feeling he knows, ‘I feel a pleasant feeling.’ When feeling a painful feeling he knows, ‘I feel a painful feeling.’ When feeling a neutral feeling he knows, ‘I feel a neutral feeling.’ When feeling a pleasant sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a pleasant sensual feeling.’ When feeling a pleasant non-sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a pleasant non-sensual feeling.’ When feeling an unpleasant sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel an unpleasant sensual feeling.’ When feeling an unpleasant non-sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel an unpleasant non-sensual feeling.’ When feeling a neutral sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a neutral sensual feeling.’ When feeling a neutral non-sensual feeling he knows, ‘I feel a neutral non-sensual feeling.’”
- Pain is the friend of the meditator. Do not evade it. It can lead you to nibbāna.
- Pain does not have to inform you of its coming. It may not disappear, but if it does, you may cry over it, for your friend has gone away.
- Pain is observed not to make it go away, but to realise its true nature.
- Pain is the key to the door of nibbāna.
- When concentration is good, pain is not a problem. It is a natural process. If you observe it attentively, the mind will be absorbed in it, and discover its true nature.
- When pain comes, note it directly. Ignore it only if it becomes overpoweringly persistent. It can be overcome by deep concentration brought about by continuous mindfulness.
- If intense pain arises during walking meditation, stop occasionally and take note of it.
- Be patient with anything and everything that stimulates your mind.
- Patience leads to nibbāna— impatience leads to hell.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org
STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip:
Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
STED definitions www.audtip.org/audtip:
Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languagesRe: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
Pain(dukka) during meditation is one of the three characteristics that constitute a being and a life.
The other two characteristics that can be brought to mind when that occurs? Not self(skandha) and impermanence(annica)... Either you can wait for impermanence of the suffering characteristic to become a reality or use that pain to look into the five skandha as not-self.
When focused on jhana both not-self and impermanence are simultaneous in occurring... If you experience suffering/pain while sitting; Sitting through til it moves to impermanence as the characteristic then dive into not-self(the skandhas) to uproot them; Liberation(nibbana) will be the result.
When Gotama resolved to not get up until he either became enlightened or dead beneath the bodhi tree; That's the route he took resulting in Buddhahood and why he was referred to as: Rightly self awakened.
Taking nibbana as an object would be if you gave someone a gift; and remained in jhana with the condition that the jhana attached to the object would end based on some specific condition such as returning the object etc. it is not often discussed that other beings experience jhana while in the presence of others thusly absorbed in it and get attached to it instead of practicing such as Ananda(Gotama's cousin) did.
There is an old Zen joke; Where someone threatens to follow someone they know is absorbed in jhana for the rest of their life; The result of that joke strikes fear into the persons heart/mind... Causing them to flee as if the person was Mara. However; Tradition since... Has made those making such jokes; The persons personal attendant/Joshu on their return; So buyer beware.
The other two characteristics that can be brought to mind when that occurs? Not self(skandha) and impermanence(annica)... Either you can wait for impermanence of the suffering characteristic to become a reality or use that pain to look into the five skandha as not-self.
When focused on jhana both not-self and impermanence are simultaneous in occurring... If you experience suffering/pain while sitting; Sitting through til it moves to impermanence as the characteristic then dive into not-self(the skandhas) to uproot them; Liberation(nibbana) will be the result.
When Gotama resolved to not get up until he either became enlightened or dead beneath the bodhi tree; That's the route he took resulting in Buddhahood and why he was referred to as: Rightly self awakened.
Taking nibbana as an object would be if you gave someone a gift; and remained in jhana with the condition that the jhana attached to the object would end based on some specific condition such as returning the object etc. it is not often discussed that other beings experience jhana while in the presence of others thusly absorbed in it and get attached to it instead of practicing such as Ananda(Gotama's cousin) did.
There is an old Zen joke; Where someone threatens to follow someone they know is absorbed in jhana for the rest of their life; The result of that joke strikes fear into the persons heart/mind... Causing them to flee as if the person was Mara. However; Tradition since... Has made those making such jokes; The persons personal attendant/Joshu on their return; So buyer beware.
The six senses accommodate; All the factors of existence... The All.
Apart from; The All... Nothing exists.
The senses are empty of a self & what belongs to a self.
Apart from; The All... Nothing exists.
The senses are empty of a self & what belongs to a self.
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
We would not be practising correctly if we lack 2 things: right view and right attitude. This also applies when pain arises.
1. Remember to view pain as just pain, not "my pain".
2. Bring about right attitude towards the pain. Easier said than done, but doable, assuming the pain is not overwhelming to you. First, don't watch the pain. Instead, check your attitude towards the pain. Is there resistance? If so, watch that instead.
As you watch the resistance with right view and right attitude (e.g. resistance is just resistance, don't try to get rid of it), the resistance generally will weaken. When the resistance is gone, watching pain is not a problem.
In fact, it's possible to come to see that the presence of pain is equal to it's absence. At that moment, you are free from pain.
1. Remember to view pain as just pain, not "my pain".
2. Bring about right attitude towards the pain. Easier said than done, but doable, assuming the pain is not overwhelming to you. First, don't watch the pain. Instead, check your attitude towards the pain. Is there resistance? If so, watch that instead.
As you watch the resistance with right view and right attitude (e.g. resistance is just resistance, don't try to get rid of it), the resistance generally will weaken. When the resistance is gone, watching pain is not a problem.
In fact, it's possible to come to see that the presence of pain is equal to it's absence. At that moment, you are free from pain.
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
There's a meditator who was instructed to do the Four Elements meditation due to physical constraints.
Once the four elements are balanced he went off to do 32 contemplations of the body to develop detachments to the body.
Then he did the colour kasinas.
Then went back down to start from the breath doing anapanasati and could sit for long hours.
I am not sure why exactly...I have heard of a meditator who had a tumour and used the four elements meditation to heal themselves.
Illness is caused by the imbalance of the four elements.
I think there's three options depending in what your goal is:
1.If it's directly affecting ailments or pain use the four elements or even brahmaviharas.
2.If it's to develop samadhi or purification of the mind.Ignore the pain and return to the meditation object.When piti or sukkha arises you won't feel any pain.
3.If it's to develop insight you focus on the pain.
A lot of people don't know they have option number 1.But the wisest thing is to use option 1 so that you can practice option number 2 so you can then practice option number 3.
Just developing option number 1 is robbing you off time you could have used to develop the practice.
Once the four elements are balanced he went off to do 32 contemplations of the body to develop detachments to the body.
Then he did the colour kasinas.
Then went back down to start from the breath doing anapanasati and could sit for long hours.
I am not sure why exactly...I have heard of a meditator who had a tumour and used the four elements meditation to heal themselves.
Illness is caused by the imbalance of the four elements.
I think there's three options depending in what your goal is:
1.If it's directly affecting ailments or pain use the four elements or even brahmaviharas.
2.If it's to develop samadhi or purification of the mind.Ignore the pain and return to the meditation object.When piti or sukkha arises you won't feel any pain.
3.If it's to develop insight you focus on the pain.
A lot of people don't know they have option number 1.But the wisest thing is to use option 1 so that you can practice option number 2 so you can then practice option number 3.
Just developing option number 1 is robbing you off time you could have used to develop the practice.
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acessoaoinsight
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:24 pm
Re: How should meditator react when physical pain raise during meditation?
A summary of Ajahn Martin teachings on how to deal with pain, taken from several Dhamma talks:
- One of the main topics in meditation, one of the strongest objects
- Pain is the steadiest object of meditation
- Pain is a good tool to investigate feelings because it stays on
- Pain makes us interested, wakes us up, stays there
- We should love pain - it keeps us awake and sharpens sati
- Investigate, not run away. If pain is disliked, it gets stronger
- Get rid of the dislike while observing pain
- All our life we run away from pain
- Don't give up to the resistance against pain
- Accept the feeling wholeheartedly, relax and feel the pain
- Just accepting the pain it may disappear on its own
- Where is the pain, feel it, really feel it
- Observe/Investigate: is it anicca? dukkha - be interested, locate it, how is it, where is it
- To go higher in the path one has to go through pain, stay with it all the way
- Only exception for changing from samatha to investigation is when pain becomes so strong impossible to maintain the breath/buddho.
- Accept pain, breathe in pain, before starting investigation
- Not ask why is there pain but what is pain
- It is possible that while investigating the pain disappears
- How does it feel, until we notice there is no more resistance in relation to the pain
- The moment we say it is my pain we lost it - anatta
- Put the attention where the pain is: skin, flesh, tendons, bones, how does it change - anicca
- When the heart understands (not the mind) we let go of the pain
- The meditation practice is all about teaching the heart. The mind can understand faster.
- Pain is pain, not something that we like or dislike
- When one is good at investigating pain, any feeling (fear, worries, hatred, greed) can be investigated: it comes up, we accept it, then ask the heart do you see/do you understand - how does it feel like. The heart doesn't understand it hurts itself, like a little kid who puts his hands on fire. We have to show the heart that what it does is stupid, that it harms itself.
- It is not possible to tell the heart to let go.
- Investigating pain is the sharpening stone for our wisdom.
- We can investigate the point where the pain arises, locate it in the bone, the muscles, the tendons, and observe it the same way we observe the breath. Is the pain in a point, in an area, is it constant or fluctuating. Or we can investigate is it anicca, anatta, dukkha.
- We should also understand what is the physical aspect and the mental aspect of pain which is the mental reaction to the pain. Those two aspects have to be differentiated.
- We have to sit through the pain in order to see its true nature, but we sit through not enduring, bearing the pain, but through investigation with very sharp sati. We cannot allow the mind to react towards the pain or to go out and do something else. We have to understand how the pain is produced. We have to be 100% ready to die. Avijja uses the pain to make us stop practicing. We have to understand the power of avijja. Avijja is in charge of producing the pain. Going through the 3 stages of pain (pain of death, after 6 hours is like the body is on fire, the last and biggest pain is like the body breaks up) there will be no trouble facing death, there is no more fear of death.
- Asking the right questions and not listening to the answers because they come from the kilesas
- See with the inner eye where does the pain come from
- One of the main topics in meditation, one of the strongest objects
- Pain is the steadiest object of meditation
- Pain is a good tool to investigate feelings because it stays on
- Pain makes us interested, wakes us up, stays there
- We should love pain - it keeps us awake and sharpens sati
- Investigate, not run away. If pain is disliked, it gets stronger
- Get rid of the dislike while observing pain
- All our life we run away from pain
- Don't give up to the resistance against pain
- Accept the feeling wholeheartedly, relax and feel the pain
- Just accepting the pain it may disappear on its own
- Where is the pain, feel it, really feel it
- Observe/Investigate: is it anicca? dukkha - be interested, locate it, how is it, where is it
- To go higher in the path one has to go through pain, stay with it all the way
- Only exception for changing from samatha to investigation is when pain becomes so strong impossible to maintain the breath/buddho.
- Accept pain, breathe in pain, before starting investigation
- Not ask why is there pain but what is pain
- It is possible that while investigating the pain disappears
- How does it feel, until we notice there is no more resistance in relation to the pain
- The moment we say it is my pain we lost it - anatta
- Put the attention where the pain is: skin, flesh, tendons, bones, how does it change - anicca
- When the heart understands (not the mind) we let go of the pain
- The meditation practice is all about teaching the heart. The mind can understand faster.
- Pain is pain, not something that we like or dislike
- When one is good at investigating pain, any feeling (fear, worries, hatred, greed) can be investigated: it comes up, we accept it, then ask the heart do you see/do you understand - how does it feel like. The heart doesn't understand it hurts itself, like a little kid who puts his hands on fire. We have to show the heart that what it does is stupid, that it harms itself.
- It is not possible to tell the heart to let go.
- Investigating pain is the sharpening stone for our wisdom.
- We can investigate the point where the pain arises, locate it in the bone, the muscles, the tendons, and observe it the same way we observe the breath. Is the pain in a point, in an area, is it constant or fluctuating. Or we can investigate is it anicca, anatta, dukkha.
- We should also understand what is the physical aspect and the mental aspect of pain which is the mental reaction to the pain. Those two aspects have to be differentiated.
- We have to sit through the pain in order to see its true nature, but we sit through not enduring, bearing the pain, but through investigation with very sharp sati. We cannot allow the mind to react towards the pain or to go out and do something else. We have to understand how the pain is produced. We have to be 100% ready to die. Avijja uses the pain to make us stop practicing. We have to understand the power of avijja. Avijja is in charge of producing the pain. Going through the 3 stages of pain (pain of death, after 6 hours is like the body is on fire, the last and biggest pain is like the body breaks up) there will be no trouble facing death, there is no more fear of death.
- Asking the right questions and not listening to the answers because they come from the kilesas
- See with the inner eye where does the pain come from