My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Goofaholix wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:26 pm I have this issue when I try to concentrate on the physical sensations of the breath at the nostrils, and then clenching jaw feeling can continue throughout the day.

The short answer is don't try to concentrate on the physical sensations of the breath at the nostrils, use a different object of attention, a broader awareness of the body beathing or the breath as a whole rather than physical sensations at one point is better for samadhi once you get into the rhythm of it.
Thanks. I'm already focusing on conceptual breathing at the tip of my nose (nostril/upperlip), yet my teeth are clenching a lot.
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2147
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:10 am. I would hate to stop this technique, because I want to follow Pa Auk's samatha jhana meditation...
Unfortunately I think you'll be grinding your teeth for a long time ahead. Because Pa Auk is famous for being the most forceful, intense, stress-inducing samatha method currently taught today.

There are plenty of other methods taught to reach jhana, I suggest you choose one more suited to your personal psychological profile?

You can reach jhana through letting go constantly, for example.
Another method is Metta and the other brahmaviharas, which can take you all the way through the 4th Jhana.

There are a lot of ways which don't stress your system so much.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by Goofaholix »

DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:10 am Thanks. I'm already focusing on conceptual breathing at the tip of my nose (nostril/upperlip), yet my teeth are clenching a lot.
The concept of the breath doesn't just happen at one small place, that's the point, the concept of the breath is the whole breath.
Last edited by Goofaholix on Sat May 06, 2023 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by Goofaholix »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 2:38 am Hmm ok so more broad like "When standing knows I'm standing, when moving knows I'm moving, when sitting knows I'm sitting..."?
More like standing, moving, sitting, recognising that its the knowing that continues and is continuous through these posture changes.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:17 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:10 am. I would hate to stop this technique, because I want to follow Pa Auk's samatha jhana meditation...
Unfortunately I think you'll be grinding your teeth for a long time ahead. Because Pa Auk is famous for being the most forceful, intense, stress-inducing samatha method currently taught today.

There are plenty of other methods taught to reach jhana, I suggest you choose one more suited to your personal psychological profile?

You can reach jhana through letting go constantly, for example.
Another method is Metta and the other brahmaviharas, which can take you all the way through the 4th Jhana.

There are a lot of ways which don't stress your system so much.
Thank you very much!

You are probably right.

But I am more in the Pa Auk tradition. The Visuddhimagga talks about loving-kindness meditation to reach the first jhana.

Do you know this technique of visuddhimagga? Here is what I understand about it:

Loving-kindness is the fact of wishing happiness, calm, serenity, security, satisfaction, to a being.

To do this, here are the successive steps :
- practice loving-kindness towards oneself
- practicing loving-kindness towards an instructor whom you remember (while helping yourself by recalling his affectionate words, his erudition, etc.). This allows the absorption concentration.

But if you want to go further than the previous steps, here are some other steps:
- practicing loving-kindness towards a very dear companion
- practicing loving-kindness towards a neutral person
- practicing loving-kindness towards an enemy (unless you have no enemy). If you can't do it, you have to repeat the previous steps. Seeing the good sides of an enemy (remembering his good words, good deeds, good thoughts, and avoiding remembering his bad words, bad deeds, bad thoughts) helps to direct loving-kindness towards this enemy. Feeling pity for this person (telling yourself that he/she will be reborn in hell) also helps to direct loving-kindness. Remembering the negative karma that the enemy has created for himself through his bad actions also helps. Remembering that the enemy was, in a previous life, our own caring mother, also helps. There are other helpful techniques as well.

We should not consider that one being deserves less loving-kindness than another. We, the loved one, the neutral being and the enemy all deserve loving-kindness equally. For example, we should not consider that we ourselves deserve less happiness than someone else. This equanimity brings forth nimitta and access concentration. From this point on, we must devote ourselves to the sign, cultivate it, and it follows that we obtain the absorption concentration, and thus we obtain the first jhâna of loving-kindness.

Is this correct?
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 9:05 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:10 am Thanks. I'm already focusing on conceptual breathing at the tip of my nose (nostril/upperlip), yet my teeth are clenching a lot.
The concept of the breath doesn't just happen at one small place, that's the point, the concept of the breath is the whole breath.

What I understood is that the conceptual breath that you have to observe is in the small place of the tip of the nose. One should not concentrate on the breath of finding elsewhere. And the "whole breath" that Pa Auk is talking about is simply the whole conceptual breath at the tip of the nose: the beginning, the middle, and the end of each conceptual breath at the tip of the nose.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by frank k »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:17 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:10 am. I would hate to stop this technique, because I want to follow Pa Auk's samatha jhana meditation...
Unfortunately I think you'll be grinding your teeth for a long time ahead. Because Pa Auk is famous for being the most forceful, intense, stress-inducing samatha method currently taught today.

There are plenty of other methods taught to reach jhana, I suggest you choose one more suited to your personal psychological profile?

You can reach jhana through letting go constantly, for example.
Another method is Metta and the other brahmaviharas, which can take you all the way through the 4th Jhana.

There are a lot of ways which don't stress your system so much.
You can find thousands of people confirming the problems with physical tension, mental tension, physical and mental health problems when you follow a vism. style of practice.

from a recent post on pa auk causing knee problems:
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... s-leg.html

more detailed explanations here:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... there.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

frank k wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 4:05 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:17 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 7:10 am. I would hate to stop this technique, because I want to follow Pa Auk's samatha jhana meditation...
Unfortunately I think you'll be grinding your teeth for a long time ahead. Because Pa Auk is famous for being the most forceful, intense, stress-inducing samatha method currently taught today.

There are plenty of other methods taught to reach jhana, I suggest you choose one more suited to your personal psychological profile?

You can reach jhana through letting go constantly, for example.
Another method is Metta and the other brahmaviharas, which can take you all the way through the 4th Jhana.

There are a lot of ways which don't stress your system so much.
You can find thousands of people confirming the problems with physical tension, mental tension, physical and mental health problems when you follow a vism. style of practice.

from a recent post on pa auk causing knee problems:
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... s-leg.html

more detailed explanations here:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... there.html
Thanks
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by Goofaholix »

DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 11:13 am What I understood is that the conceptual breath that you have to observe is in the small place of the tip of the nose. One should not concentrate on the breath of finding elsewhere. And the "whole breath" that Pa Auk is talking about is simply the whole conceptual breath at the tip of the nose: the beginning, the middle, and the end of each conceptual breath at the tip of the nose.
The phrase "conceptual breathing" doesn't make sense to me, it implies a different kind of breathing. With the concept of the breath anything you notice associated with the breath you notice as breath, you don't break it down into its characteristics like you do with vipassana, see https://americanmonk.org/concept-meditation/. While it might be useful to let the mind settle on one point I don't think its useful to force it to when its not ready, instead notice whatever you notice associated with the breath as breath while gently encouraging the mind to settle on one point.

If you're getting tension then its not gentle enough, better to give the mind a broader object of the whole breath than to keep piling on the tension.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

The phrase "conceptual breathing" doesn't make sense to me, it implies a different kind of breathing. With the concept of the breath anything you notice associated with the breath you notice as breath, you don't break it down into its characteristics like you do with vipassana, see https://americanmonk.org/concept-meditation/.
By "conceptual breathing" I mean the same as what your article says. So we are talking about the same thing.

While it might be useful to let the mind settle on one point I don't think its useful to force it to when its not ready, instead notice whatever you notice associated with the breath as breath while gently encouraging the mind to settle on one point.
Interesting, thank you. Personally I follow the Pa Auk method, and it is clear that he says that you have to focus exclusively on the conceptual breathing at the tip of the nose and no other place.
If you're getting tension then its not gentle enough, better to give the mind a broader object of the whole breath than to keep piling on the tension.
I recently remembered that when I meditate, I focus on the breath of the side of only one nostril (I focus only on the breath of one nostril and ignore the breath of the other nostril). I do this because I had picked up an element of Pannananda's technique. Maybe that's why I had this tension. Maybe my problem can be solved by focusing on breathing from both nostrils.

In any case I remember your technique. When exactly do you advise to wait to concentrate on the tip of the nose?
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by Goofaholix »

DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:36 pm I recently remembered that when I meditate, I focus on the breath of the side of only one nostril (I focus only on the breath of one nostril and ignore the breath of the other nostril). I do this because I had picked up an element of Pannananda's technique. Maybe that's why I had this tension. Maybe my problem can be solved by focusing on breathing from both nostrils.
That doesn't sound like a good idea, the breath comes through both nostrils unless you have a congestion problem. Probably it was just suggested as an experiment to see how sharp your mind is, not an ongoing practice.
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:36 pm In any case I remember your technique. When exactly do you advise to wait to concentrate on the tip of the nose?
I don't, as generally I've found samadhi is better when I step the attention back a bit to a broader awareness. Over time though the mind does seem to naturally settle with a central spot though, its useful as a point of reference.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:48 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:36 pm I recently remembered that when I meditate, I focus on the breath of the side of only one nostril (I focus only on the breath of one nostril and ignore the breath of the other nostril). I do this because I had picked up an element of Pannananda's technique. Maybe that's why I had this tension. Maybe my problem can be solved by focusing on breathing from both nostrils.
That doesn't sound like a good idea, the breath comes through both nostrils unless you have a congestion problem. Probably it was just suggested as an experiment to see how sharp your mind is, not an ongoing practice.
DeadBuddha wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 8:36 pm In any case I remember your technique. When exactly do you advise to wait to concentrate on the tip of the nose?
I don't, as generally I've found samadhi is better when I step the attention back a bit to a broader awareness. Over time though the mind does seem to naturally settle with a central spot though, its useful as a point of reference.
Thank you very much
Dhammapardon
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 9:07 am
Dhammapardon wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 2:38 am Hmm ok so more broad like "When standing knows I'm standing, when moving knows I'm moving, when sitting knows I'm sitting..."?
More like standing, moving, sitting, recognising that its the knowing that continues and is continuous through these posture changes.
Interesting distinction. :anjali:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by Kumara »

In the first place, the Buddha's teaching of anapanasati as found in the Suttas says nothing of focusing at the nose tip. Please refer to "Appendix 11: Ānāpānasati Revisited" in What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: My teeth clench as I meditate. What to do?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Kumara wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:10 am In the first place, the Buddha's teaching of anapanasati as found in the Suttas says nothing of focusing at the nose tip. Please refer to "Appendix 11: Ānāpānasati Revisited" in What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi
Thank you very much Venerable. I would like to tell you that I've seen you reply several times to debates on topics, including old ones, and that helps me a lot on my way. I'm sure you help a lot of people too.

Moreover, the more I deepen my knowledge of the suttas and the arguments in the debates you tackle, the more impressed I am by your culture and the overall understanding you have of the suttas and debates. What's more, you go through so many arguments and so many subjects while being cautious, all in such detail that it's really impressive. I regularly reread passages from your book, and find it more and more brilliant. It really is a very intelligently written book, Venerable.

Thank you!!!
Post Reply